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Thread: Smoke / Tar

  1. #1

    Default Smoke / Tar

    Long story but I'm currently planning a steam train accord, something smokey, tarry, oily, coal like. Smokey fragrances aren't usually my thing and so I've not really attempted anything like this before, so far I have the following ingredients in mind:

    Birch Tar
    Cade Oil
    Thyme
    M-Cresol
    P-Cresol

    Anyone have any other suggestions?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    Chinese Cedar Wood, Safraleine, Origanum oil, and for the wet green note of steam, Stemone.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    Excellent thank you for the suggestions David. I have Safraleine already and have actually just ordered some Stemone for something else I'm working on. Will look into the others now!

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    hmmm, maybe some weeds, herbs, pine trees? ( the train ride itself...)
    Paul Kiler
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    I am not sure what you would use but surely you'll need something metallic? And absolutely you need animalics and erogenous ingredients like costus oil for the sweat of the brows of the men shoveling the coal!
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    Am I alone in really wanting to hear the long story?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    Am I alone in really wanting to hear the long story?
    I wouldn't mind hearing it

    Nothing says burnt and smoky to me like Eden Botanical's Fossilized Amber. Pretty unique and magical in it's effect but priced as such. Fortunately, traces go a long way.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    I'd love to hear the story. I've loved trains since I was a child, and had an HO model set with my Dad.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    Some good suggestions so far.

    The plan to include thyme was well thought through, HRLQN. In addition to the thyme, I would recommed adding a somewhat smaller quantity of clove or eugenol. Both have a phenolic odour that blends well with birch, cade and coal tar.

    One of the most notable differences between coal smoke and wood smoke, is that the former has a very strong sulfurous note, particularly in the early stages of combustion. Coal contains a considerable amount of sulfur compounds, which upon combustion are converted primarily to sulfur dioxide and sulfur trioxide, which possess very pungent and sulfurous odours. The majority is driven off in the first few minutes, so the net effect is considerably lower. You may therefore wish to consider adding a faint sulfurous note to your accord. A few aroma compounds that you could use to this end are: buchu mercaptan, coffee difuran, dimethyl trisulfide, furfuryl mercaptan and furfuryl thioformate.

    One other notable difference between coal and wood smoke, is that the former contains primarily polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) with a smaller amount of alkyl phenols; as opposed the later, which contains primarily methoxy phenols. This makes a fair amount of difference to the aroma, as the former two tend to be considerably less smoky in aroma. With that in mind, I would recommend that you use the birch and cade oil in moderation; just a little should do.

    As you may know, PAHs are now banned for use in fragrances, so you can't include them in the formula – unless it's for personal use. However, you could add a little indole, which is structurally very similar to naphthalene (the single most abundant PAH in coal smoke/tar), and which possesses a similar odor. However, indole does also possess an additional floral/fecal note, so again, moderation would be key. I hope that this proves helpful.

    Pears
    Last edited by Pears; 6th July 2017 at 01:27 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    A couple of thoughts to add from my own experience in smoky scents: guaiacol and guaiacwood are both useful and a particularly important material for smoke is syringol. You might also consider a small amount of tabanone.

    For the steam element I agree stemone is excellent but you might also try nerol and a tiny bit of geosmin as part of the picture.

    A little rose oxide would give both a metallic note and diffusion to the whole composition as well as support the wet / steam accord too.

    For the sulphurous note you could consider dimethyl sulphide or benzothiazole in addition to the other suggestions (but only in traces). As it happens Iíve just been stinking out my entire environment with those two in preparation for adding them to my sale list so they are on my mind rather!
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    Good suggestions Chris. Research that I did some time ago indicated that guaiacol and syringol are produced from the pyrolysis of lignin, in wood and other plant materials. Interestingly though, during coalification the lignin in decomposed plant material undergoes a sequence of cross reactions and the methoxy groups are gradually removed; and thus next to no guaiacol or syringol is produced upon the pyrolysis of coal. This is largely the reason why coal tar smells considerably less smoky than wood tar. Anyhow, I just thought that you might find it interesting. In moderation, guaiacol and syringol would certainly be useful in a coal smoke/tar accord. Fortunately, the OP has birch and cade oil in mind, which contain them in abundance.
    Last edited by Pears; 9th July 2017 at 01:23 PM.

  12. #12
    Basenotes Institution rynegne's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    Maybe Choya Loban?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    Good suggestions Chris. Research that I did some time ago indicated that guaiacol and syringol are produced from the pyrolysis of lignin in wood and other plant materials. Interestingly though, during coalification the lignin in decomposed plant material undergoes a sequence of cross reactions; and thus next to no guaiacol or syringol is produced upon the pyrolysis of coal. This is largely the reason why coal tar smells considerably less smokey than wood tar. Anyhow, I just thought that you might find it interesting. In moderation, guaiacol and syringol would certainly be useful in a coal smoke/tar accord. Fortunately, the OP has birch and cade oil in mind, which contain them in abundance.
    Interesting that those two are absent from coal smoke: I didnít know that and have next to no personal experience of the smell of coal smoke either (at least not that I can remember), whereas I have an open fire of wood almost every day so I know that smell very well.

    I seem to remember from years ago air pollution considerations that there are radically different levels of sulphur in coal from different parts of the world, which I guess might be relevant but Iím afraid I canít remember which areas produced high and low sulphur coals ... too many martinis since I knew about that stuff!
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
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    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    Thank you for all the excellent responses! Got my work cut out now trying to sorce some of these materials. Pears and Chris your replies have been particularly helpful as it was that difference between coal and wood smoke that was troubling me. Also I don't know why I didn't think about it but smelling some this morning and Castoreum seems rather appropriate too.

    As for the story it's actually neither that long nor that interesting! My better half wanted me to make her something that reminds her of some of her favourite things from our travels round India, but rather than try to create one scent I've decided to create a sort of 'smelling box' of various different accords so that she can smell each one individually, and if any of them turn out to be wearable then maybe even layer them and create different personalised scents. So things like masala chai, spice markets, beaches and backwaters, sandalwood, various flowers etc. And one of her fondest memories is the Darjeeling steam train (or the Toy Train as it's sometimes known), which leads me here!

  15. #15
    Basenotes Junkie Serg Ixygon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    Is Syringol a strong material? Working solution is 1%? or 10? What is the main difference in smell with guaiacol? Both are methoxyphenols.
    Last edited by Serg Ixygon; 5th July 2017 at 01:07 PM.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    Syringe is not strong to me, guaiacol is stronger..
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
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    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    Cypriol also has some smoky aspects and is overall fitting the indian context, I'd think.
    Last edited by Nasenmann; 5th July 2017 at 06:13 PM.
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  18. #18
    Basenotes Junkie Serg Ixygon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    Interesting table-
    http://promeat-industry.ru/kopchenyk...a-i-vkusa.html
    what makes smoke smoky (shown levels of detection)
    Phenol, 2,3- 2,4- xylenols - chemical, bready
    2,6- 3,4- 3,5-xylenols, guaiacol- cresolic, sweet smoky with spicy notes
    4-methyl, 4-ethyl, 4-vynil -guaiacol- sweet smoky carnation
    4-allyl guaiacol - woody
    Syringol- smoky flowers
    4-Methyl- 4-ethyl- 4 propyl- 4-propylen-syringol- burnt
    Pyrocatechine and gomologs- sweet smoky

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    Quote Originally Posted by Serg Ixygon View Post
    Google will translate the page for me but the table remains undecipherable for me...
    Paul Kiler
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    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  20. #20
    Basenotes Junkie Serg Ixygon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    Because the table is jpg (picture) from some book.
    4-allyl guaiacol=eugenol
    Pyrocathechine= catechol
    Last edited by Serg Ixygon; 6th July 2017 at 05:55 AM.

  21. #21
    Basenotes Junkie Dmitriy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Smoke / Tar

    Here is the translation of the data from the table, Serg translated already.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serg Ixygon View Post
    Interesting table-
    http://promeat-industry.ru/kopchenyk...a-i-vkusa.html
    what makes smoke smoky (shown levels of detection)
    Phenol, 2,3- 2,4- xylenols - chemical, bready
    2,6- 3,4- 3,5-xylenols, guaiacol- cresolic, sweet smoky with spicy notes
    4-methyl, 4-ethyl, 4-vynil -guaiacol- sweet smoky carnation
    4-allyl guaiacol - woody
    Syringol- smoky flowers
    4-Methyl- 4-ethyl- 4 propyl- 4-propylen-syringol- burnt
    Pyrocatechine and gomologs- sweet smoky

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