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  1. #1
    Basenotes Junkie Serg Ixygon's Avatar
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    Default Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    Can somebody explain the difference in producing that materials and smell?

    Vetiver oil is made of vetiver roots directly.
    Vetiveryl Acetate- it is a product of acetalization of whole Vetiver oil? Or some fraction was separated from the oil before acetalization? And what this process gives for perfumery goal? VA- it is not a single molecule it's still a mixture of everything?
    Vetiverol- it is a single molecule made of not Vetiver oil at all? If it's so why there is a note- ex Haiti, ex something? Is it smell very different from Vetiver oil?
    Thanks.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    Vetiver oil is an Essential oil made by steam distilling Vetiver roots. The major component of this oil is Vetiverol (about 50.0%), and it may be isolated from the oil. It is made up of several isomers, and as always when isolating from an Essential oil, the source of the Vetiverol can have an effect on its odour. There will always be a difference between an Essential oil and the major component from that oil (think of Clove Bud oil and Eugenol), the oil being more complex. The oil will smell of Vetiverol plus other chemicals, and the amounts of those chemicals will vary as the source changes. Vetiverol can be acetylated to give Vetiveryl Acetate. Like all acetates compared to the parent alcohol, Vetiveryl Acetate is sharper, sweeter, and (some say) stronger. There was quite a lot of Vetiveryl Acetate in the original formula of Guerlain's Vetiver.

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    Basenotes Junkie Serg Ixygon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    Thank you, David.

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    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    To my nose: Vetiver absolute oil are more earthy/radish tone, more deep and dark, Vetiveril Acetate is more sweet and "peanuts" tone ,a scent present in many modern perfumes...

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    Basenotes Junkie Serg Ixygon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    THank you, Geco. Does the quality of VA depends from producer the same as oil?
    Last edited by Serg Ixygon; 2nd July 2016 at 08:08 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    Quote Originally Posted by Serg Ixygon View Post
    THank you, Geco. Does the quality of VA depends from producer the same as oil?
    With naturals and natural extracts the quality will vary from producer to producer.

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    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    I wasn't expecting much difference between some vetiveryl acetate ("generic")that I had on hand and some that I recently purchased (Ventos), but there was, and I was pleasantly surprised. I guess it's like a lot of other things that go by the same name but in reality can be quite different

    Also would like to say that I really enjoy reading your posts.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    You can get at least two types of ingredient both called "Vetiveryl Acetate". One is the result of the acetylation of extracted Vetiverol, the other the product of the acetylation of Vetiver oil. They will smell different.

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    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    I also recently purchased vetiverol as well, but haven't gotten around to sampling that yet. For some reason I seem to have a preference for scents that start out or reference woods and grasses, whether they are natural or synthetic. I like Leaf Alcohol and how it smells like freshly mown lawn. It also has a smell that suggests it would feel "oily", which is an odd thing to me, that scent would have a haptic component that you would feel...

    I'm having a hard time understanding the materials that are, I think, referred to as "fractionated". Are they a further "distillation" of a natural or a (re)construction of particular synthetic molecules present in the natural material. Or could they be either?

    When starting out I received from IFF samples of a Peppermint Oil, a Peppermint Absolut and a Peppermint "Heart", which I believe is a fractionation. The Oil was obvious, the Absolute helped me to understand "freshness" and what can happen when heat doesn't enter the process, but the "Heart" still has me confused. I understand that it is only part of the Peppermint, but how it can small like burning electronics, which has its own strange kind of appeal, amazes me.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Conti View Post
    I also recently purchased vetiverol as well, but haven't gotten around to sampling that yet. For some reason I seem to have a preference for scents that start out or reference woods and grasses, whether they are natural or synthetic. I like Leaf Alcohol and how it smells like freshly mown lawn. It also has a smell that suggests it would feel "oily", which is an odd thing to me, that scent would have a haptic component that you would feel...

    I'm having a hard time understanding the materials that are, I think, referred to as "fractionated". Are they a further "distillation" of a natural or a (re)construction of particular synthetic molecules present in the natural material. Or could they be either?

    When starting out I received from IFF samples of a Peppermint Oil, a Peppermint Absolut and a Peppermint "Heart", which I believe is a fractionation. The Oil was obvious, the Absolute helped me to understand "freshness" and what can happen when heat doesn't enter the process, but the "Heart" still has me confused. I understand that it is only part of the Peppermint, but how it can small like burning electronics, which has its own strange kind of appeal, amazes me.
    It is very difficult to remember and describe smells as our vocabulary for this is so poor. We have very few words (in English, other languages may be better at this) which directly describe a smell, and most of them are negative, such as "stench", or "stink". Even the word "smell" can have a negative connotation. So, in attempting to describe a smell it is necessary to use adjectives which are usually used to describe other senses. Colour, and vision is an obvious one. "Smells like cut grass", "Smells Green". Sensations can help, "I think it smells hot/cold". Taste, " it smells sweet/bitter/ salty". And, definitely, texture. "This smells powder/ dry, oily, greasy". Smells need all the help they can get (or you do, who is trying to learn them), anything that makes your remembering better can and should be used.

    A fractionated oil has been separated into component chemicals by further distillation. You can separate any oil into Top, Middle and Base chemicals, by controlling the time at which the components are captured. Essential oils contain many, many chemicals, each one smelling (slightly) different, each one contributing to the overall smell of the oil. It is possible to isolate one, or a small mixture of those components. This is often done, for a variety of reasons.

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    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    Thank you David, that's very helpful. So fractionated materials are created by subtracting from a single natural material.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    When you distill a mixture of chemicals, you can follow the progress of separation as the individual chemicals vaporise and pass over into the condenser. It is possible to isolate specific chemicals this way. You mentioned Peppermint oil; untouched, simply distilled Peppermint oil will be solid because of the amount of Menthol present. The liquid oil we are familiar with has had some of the Menthol removed to allow for it to remain liquid. The Menthol left over, is a fraction of Peppermint oil used on its own.

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    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    Ah, that's interesting, so even some of the things that we think of as "pure" essential oils are fractionated!

    As long as they put that menthol in Vicks VapoRub I'm happy. I love Vicks VapoRub!

    Thank you!

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    When you distill a mixture of chemicals, you can follow the progress of separation as the individual chemicals vaporise and pass over into the condenser. It is possible to isolate specific chemicals this way. You mentioned Peppermint oil; untouched, simply distilled Peppermint oil will be solid because of the amount of Menthol present. The liquid oil we are familiar with has had some of the Menthol removed to allow for it to remain liquid. The Menthol left over, is a fraction of Peppermint oil used on its own.
    Just a tiny clarification, Peppermint Oil (mentha piperita) actually only contains about 35-40% menthol and the crude oil is a liquid. The variety of mint oil that menthol is obtained from is Cornmint (mentha arvensis). That one has about 80% menthol and once it is removed, the remaining oil is called DMO (dementholized mint oil).
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    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    When I was a little kid I used to like to compare the different mint varieties of Lifesavers - pepOmint, spearOmint, and wintOgreen. I remember thinking that peppermint was too spicy hot. I really liked wintergreen but if I ate too many I got nauseated. (There was also that spark in the dark trick.) But my favorite desert island mint flavor was spearmint. Cool, green, lush and refreshing! I loved those spearmint green jelly leaves on my grandmother's coffee table. There was always mint in the iced tea' growing like a weed in the neighbor's garden. I preferred Wrigleys Spearmint gum over their DoubleMint. I wonder why mint never crossed over to personal and household fragrance products, other than toothpaste and mouthwash?
    Last edited by Jim Conti; 5th July 2016 at 10:40 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    Quote Originally Posted by PerfumerSupplyHouse View Post
    Just a tiny clarification, Peppermint Oil (mentha piperita) actually only contains about 35-40% menthol and the crude oil is a liquid. The variety of mint oil that menthol is obtained from is Cornmint (mentha arvensis). That one has about 80% menthol and once it is removed, the remaining oil is called DMO (dementholized mint oil).
    Thank you for that, I always like to learn things. I really thought that Menthol came from Peppermint. So can you tell me why my Olbas oil contains both Dementholated Peppermint oil, and added Menthol?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Conti View Post
    When I was a little kid I used to like to compare the different mint varieties of Lifesavers - pepOmint, spearOmint, and wintOgreen. I remember thinking that peppermint was too spicy hot. I really liked wintergreen but if I ate too many I got nauseated. (There was also that spark in the dark trick.) But my favorite desert island mint flavor was spearmint. Cool, green, lush and refreshing! I loved those spearmint green jelly leaves on my grandmother's coffee table. There was always mint in the iced tea' growing like a weed in the neighbor's garden. I preferred Wrigleys Spearmint gum over their DoubleMint. I wonder why mint never crossed over to personal and household fragrance products, other than toothpaste and mouthwash?
    I can never understand the popularity of Wintergreen as a flavouring in America. It reminds me only of mouthwash and the dentists. Ain't different cultures great!

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    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    It's also used in root beer soda along with other flavorings. I'm not sure if it's in cola sodas or not. It does have a sort of medicinal taste and I think that was how it started. It's supposedly toxic in enough quantity and 1 ounce is equivalent to almost 2 ounces of aspirin! So I guess you could drink root beer for a headache...

    Olbas...I love that stuff!

  19. #19

    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    Oh and I forgot, Deep Heat vapour rub, for strained muscles. Guess it's less toxic than Sassafras , but tasted not much better. It has to be a cultural thing but I hate root beer, and don't get me started on Dr. Pepper.

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    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Thank you for that, I always like to learn things. I really thought that Menthol came from Peppermint. So can you tell me why my Olbas oil contains both Dementholated Peppermint oil, and added Menthol?
    I've never heard of Olbas Oil, but I imagine it is because DMO and Menthol are more widely (commercially) available than the whole Arvensis oil. In fact, I think 99% of the mentha arvensis grown is used for nat menthol production, since the demand is so great.

    One other side note (sorry this is going pretty deep), but the Indian manufacturers (I represent one) who offer mint and menthol call the DMO "dementholated or dementholized peppermint", when in fact it isn't peppermint at all. It's just a bad habit they got into years ago.
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  21. #21

    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    Maybe Olbas oil is unique to the UK. It is a mixture of Essential oils (including Clove, Eucalyptus, Peppermint and Cajeput. This is the only time I have ever encountered Cajeput oil in fragrance) which can be used when you have a head cold as it helps unclog a clogged nose. Apparently it can also be used as a muscle rub, although I have never done that.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    I use Cajeput oil as a topnote for some bases. Similar to Eucalyptus, but a slightly different profile. That profile matched some missing elements to a GC of a flower I have been working on. Plus, we have it in house because my wife from Indonesia does in fact use it for chest and muscle rubs. I buy it in retail bottles when we travel to Indonesia.

    Kayu Putih / Cajeput EO

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  23. #23

    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Oh and I forgot, Deep Heat vapour rub, for strained muscles. Guess it's less toxic than Sassafras , but tasted not much better. It has to be a cultural thing but I hate root beer, and don't get me started on Dr. Pepper.
    David, Birch Beer is also a lovely drink here. You would not like it I am guessing with it's strong wintergreen.
    You comment reminded me of that singing ad for Dr. Pepper. "I'm a Pepper, you're a Pepper, wouldn't ya like to be a Pepper too!" Apparently not. LOL

  24. #24

    Default Re: Vetiver, Vetiverol, Vetiveryl

    Quote Originally Posted by julian35 View Post
    David, Birch Beer is also a lovely drink here. You would not like it I am guessing with it's strong wintergreen.
    You comment reminded me of that singing ad for Dr. Pepper. "I'm a Pepper, you're a Pepper, wouldn't ya like to be a Pepper too!" Apparently not. LOL
    I remember the first (and only) time I tasted Dr. Pepper. I took a mouthful, and spat it out.




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