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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by Scents And Sense View Post
    I know I am going to completely regret saying this, but I wholeheartedly agree with all of his reviews and ratings.

    I've never understood the harsh hate the poor guy gets.
    I don’t agree with all his ratings, but then I don’t agree with all of anyone else’s opinions about anything—and, if I did, then I wouldn’t find that person or their work interesting. We learn nothing from people with whom we always agree. Luca Turin’s opinions are strong and strongly stated: hence the hate, I suppose.

    I likewise enjoy Tania Sanchez’ writing, which I generally find neither less astute nor less well written than Turin’s.
    Currently wearing: Bandit by Robert Piguet

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by PStoller View Post
    I don’t agree with all his ratings, but then I don’t agree with all of anyone else’s opinions about anything—and, if I did, then I wouldn’t find that person or their work interesting. We learn nothing from people with whom we always agree. Luca Turin’s opinions are strong and strongly stated: hence the hate, I suppose.

    I likewise enjoy Tania Sanchez’ writing, which I generally find neither less astute nor less well written than Turin’s.
    Yup. Nothing is more important in this time than being open to differing opinions... particularly when they're coming from an educated/well considered position, and from a person who is also open to hearing divergent opinions. We are suffering through a terribly binary time. Hating on something as ambiguous and subjective as perfume opinions certainly doesn't help with that when the left/right thing is so rancorous right now.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by PStoller View Post
    Luca Turinís opinions are strong and strongly stated: hence the hate, I suppose.
    What is irritating is how pretentious he is to introduce himself as a fragrance expert, while he is just a controversial scientist with a poor end of career, who found a new goldmine in publishing books to cover his retirement expenses. Not because one is a nose doctor or a wine chemist -aka oenologist - does it mean she/he will be a great wine sommelier. Knowing how things works and having a nose trained for accurate descritpions are two different things.

    But taken as a simple opinion in the middle of other thousands, it's ok. Just remember he only gives personal opinions, with a nose barely more trained than the average. If he was a trained perfumer or professional sommelier , his opinions would have for sure more value. But it's not the case.
    That said, his opinions have not even less value that the one of any other fraghead on Basenotes.
    Currently wearing: Resina by Oliver & Co.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by LinePlaneVolume View Post
    Yup. Nothing is more important in this time than being open to differing opinions... particularly when they're coming from an educated/well considered position
    He is not trained. That is precisely why it's controversial how he introduced himself. As I stated in my previous post, a wine chemist knows how to make a great wine, not to describe/review it accurately. That is the job of a trained sommelier.

    He is a physical chemist (or something like that), not a perfumer.
    Currently wearing: Resina by Oliver & Co.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    They wrote a guide, and the ratings are "recommended" (4) and "avoid" (1), not "the worst". Quote: "Ratings represent the reviewer recommendation and not objective point scales".

    I'm perfectly fine with them not recommending me expensive fragrances that don't bring anything new on the table, particularly in comparison with more affordable perfumes one can enjoy without the feeling of missing out because of limited personal budget. Who cares if they aren't perfumers - they're critics. Personally, I find Luca's use of musical terms and metaphors much more revealing and helpful to me than the use of names of chemical components.

  6. #66
    Super Member LinePlaneVolume's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy the frenchy View Post
    He is not trained. That is precisely why it's controversial how he introduced himself. As I stated in my previous post, a wine chemist knows how to make a great wine, not to describe/review it accurately. That is the job of a trained sommelier.

    He is a physical chemist (or something like that), not a perfumer.
    I guess that's why critics must live with the fact that so many people ultimately disagree with them. And, in the end, he is just a perfume critic, right?

  7. #67

    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    I think certainly —by any metric — Luca Turin is an expert. Even just having gone through thousands of perfumes for the guide would make him more qualified than most to write about this stuff. He did the work. He’s a good writer. He knows the history. He knows some of the chemistry. He’s done research and interviews. It’s almost absurd to claim he’s not a towering figure in the perfume world. He’s been writing about perfume since 1992, right? That’s experience.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by Proust_Madeleine View Post
    I think certainly óby any metric ó Luca Turin is an expert. Even just having gone through thousands of perfumes for the guide would make him more qualified than most to write about this stuff. He did the work. Heís a good writer. He knows the history. He knows some of the chemistry. Heís done research and interviews. Itís almost absurd to claim heís not a towering figure in the perfume world. Heís been writing about perfume since 1992, right? Thatís experience.
    Agreed on all counts. The work he has put in makes him an expert and Iíve found his writing on fragrance useful, entertaining, and smart.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    You could be an idiot in other things but still have an outstanding inborn talent for smelling notes, describing and writing about fragrances with passion and general accuracy.
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  10. #70
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy the frenchy View Post
    What is irritating is how pretentious he is to introduce himself as a fragrance expert, while he is just a controversial scientist with a poor end of career, who found a new goldmine in publishing books to cover his retirement expenses. Not because one is a nose doctor or a wine chemist -aka oenologist - does it mean she/he will be a great wine sommelier.
    I'm sure there's a degree course in perfume criticism somewhere, though I couldn't find one in an admittedly limited search. Feel free to post a link. (As you point out regarding œnologists, training as perfumer doesn't necessarily make one a good perfume critic.)

    In any case, formal training is only one sort of expertise, and not always the most valuable. Whatever training they do or don't have, I have yet to read any body of perfume criticism more adept than Turin's and Sanchez'. As adept, perhaps; more diplomatic, certainly.

    And this last I think is the rub: people object to LT and TS' curt dismissals of their personal favorites, and so respond with curt dismissals of LT and TS. But it's not the job of a critic to have opinions you agree with, but rather to make a cogent case for the opinions they have. Even when I disagree completely with the critics in question, I don't see where they've failed to do their job adequately. It's art criticism: there is no "right" and "wrong" beyond the (mostly mundane) facts on which the criticism is based. More training would not make their opinions more correct. Less training would not make them less so.

    As a musician and music aficionado, certain music reviewers (no doubt not trained musicians) used to drive me crazy with their editorial slant away from what I liked and toward what I didn't, along with enough factual errors to make me doubt they'd done due diligence on the objects of their disdain. Funny thing, though: I can't remember their namby-pamby counterparts at all. Forceful criticism stirs reflection and debate. That's as it should be. If you want a book of criticism that doesn't aggravate you, write one. Otherwise, consider irksome criticism a whetstone against which to sharpen your own perceptions and deliberations, rather than wasting time attempting to discredit the critics.
    Currently wearing: Bandit by Robert Piguet

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy the frenchy View Post
    What is irritating is how pretentious he is to introduce himself as a fragrance expert...
    Iím not aware of any instances where Luca actually made such an introduction. Perhaps youíd care to share the specifics?

    Luca Turin is a chemist who loves fragrances enough to write books about them. But he writes them in an entertaining style. Why anyone would give inordinately more weight to his opinions on something as subjective as perfume is beyond my comprehension. More perplexing however is the vitriol and ad hominem attacks...

  12. #72

    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by Scents And Sense View Post
    I know I am going to completely regret saying this, but I wholeheartedly agree with all of his reviews and ratings.

    I've never understood the harsh hate the poor guy gets.
    Pure envy by intolerant wannabes. Some of them with ridiculous reviews (and endless fights) on Fragrantica.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by PStoller View Post
    (As you point out regarding œnologists, training as perfumer doesn't necessarily make one a good perfume critic.)

    But it's not the job of a critic to have opinions you agree with, but rather to make a cogent case for the opinions they have. Even when I disagree completely with the critics in question, I don't see where they've failed to do their job adequately. It's art criticism: there is no "right" and "wrong" beyond the (mostly mundane) facts on which the criticism is based.
    I was comparing the perfumers to the sommelier, not to the oenologist.

    I totally agree that a critic has just an opinion that was exactly my point. I just find laughable that many cite Turin as a reference, an expert, while he is just one of the thousands of critics without more training (for the nose) than any average+ basenoter.
    Currently wearing: Resina by Oliver & Co.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    All this arguing over a blog that doesn't seem to be getting updates anymore. I think the guy's more busy with his video seminars on perfume ingredients over on YouTube. Interesting stuff, that.
    oh look, I have a signature
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  15. #75
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy the frenchy View Post
    I was comparing the perfumers to the sommelier, not to the oenologist.
    If so, then you were making the wrong comparison.
    Currently wearing: Bandit by Robert Piguet

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by LinePlaneVolume View Post
    I guess that's why critics must live with the fact that so many people ultimately disagree with them. And, in the end, he is just a perfume critic, right?
    Yes, just a critic. Possibly an experienced one, but still, just a critic. Like there are thousands on Basenotes (some more interesting than others, and imo, Turin is part of the second category - to each his own!)
    Currently wearing: Resina by Oliver & Co.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by PStoller View Post
    If so, then you were making the wrong comparison.
    If you think so, I must indeed be wrong.
    Currently wearing: Resina by Oliver & Co.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by ccdan View Post

    Here are some of the "BEST" (5 stars) according to Luca Turin:


    Geoffrey Beene Grey Flannel - "a masterpiece"

    When you trash too many(varied) things that are held in high esteem by many others, your credibility is ZERO!

    .
    It seems unless a critic holds everything in high esteem (like some movie or entertainment review types), whatever is criticized will be a favorite for someone so by definition the credibility goes to zero for lots of people. It doesn't seem realistic anyone's tastes will match exactly with a criic and would prefer one that is critical of something than nothing.

    But the big takeaway, yes Grey Flannel is a masterpiece!!!! Will have to remember this and requote it the next time someone is knocking it....

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by ccdan View Post
    Here are some of the "WORST" fragrances according to Luca Turin(and sometimes Tania Sanchez):

    Subjectivity has its limits. When you trash too many(varied) things that are held in high esteem by many others, your credibility is ZERO! Perhaps below zero, if that makes sense. Some people dislike certain notes, other entire "genres" or perhaps "styles" of blending or whatever. But it's not the case here. I don't think his reviews have much to do with actual evaluation of fragrances(how good fragrances smell), it seems more like a place where he can deliver blows to some people/entities he dislikes(frag houses, owners of frag houses, perhaps certain perfumers, etc.)

    Pretty bad idea to cite him as a supposed "authority" on fragrance - it will decrease your credibility as well.
    It's obvious who he is getting paid by. You can't take this guy seriously.

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyBars View Post
    Luca considers price in his ratings according to his own description of his review process.
    I don't know what price has to do with the quality of a fragrance, we wouldn't say a Ferrari is a crap car because most people can't afford it.

  21. #81
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by oudaddict View Post
    I don't know what price has to do with the quality of a fragrance, we wouldn't say a Ferrari is a crap car because most people can't afford it.
    For $20K, a Toyota Corolla is arguably worth buying. For $200K, it inarguably isn't. Turin docks fragrances that are badged and priced like Ferraris if they perform like Corollas. That's where price comes into the picture.

    Whether you agree with his qualitative assessments is another matter. But he's not just slamming anything pricey.
    Currently wearing: Bandit by Robert Piguet

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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by oudaddict View Post
    It's obvious who he is getting paid by. You can't take this guy seriously.
    He's not getting paid! There's always at least one fragrance that he hates from every brand that he raves about. Who do you think he's getting paid by?

  23. #83

    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by PStoller View Post
    Turin docks fragrances that are badged and priced like Ferraris if they perform like Corollas. That's where price comes into the picture.
    But he doesn't do that. Rojas, Creeds and Xerjoffs are priced in most cases according to their perceived quality(many times above ordinary frags that are often liked by Turin)

    These are the Rolls Royces and the Bentleys of perfumery!

    Take for example Roja Vetiver Parfum - although it somewhat resembles Grey Vetiver, it's way more complex and way more pleasant - where I live I could get Grey Vetiver from discounters for about 65 usd, but I prefer to pay about 7-8x more for the Roja(which is very rarely found at discounters - I only know of notino that used to have it and the discount was not really big)

    Same for Original Vetiver and Green Irish Tweed. They're a lot more expensive than their cheaper counterparts(CW and Mugler Cologne), but well worth the money!

  24. #84

    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by Scents And Sense View Post
    He's not getting paid! There's always at least one fragrance that he hates from every brand that he raves about. Who do you think he's getting paid by?
    I want to know who’s paying him too!

  25. #85
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by ccdan View Post
    But he doesn't do that. Rojas, Creeds and Xerjoffs are priced in most cases according to their perceived quality(many times above ordinary frags that are often liked by Turin)

    These are the Rolls Royces and the Bentleys of perfumery!

    Take for example Roja Vetiver Parfum - although it somewhat resembles Grey Vetiver, it's way more complex and way more pleasant - where I live I could get Grey Vetiver from discounters for about 65 usd, but I prefer to pay about 7-8x more for the Roja(which is very rarely found at discounters - I only know of notino that used to have it and the discount was not really big)

    Same for Original Vetiver and Green Irish Tweed. They're a lot more expensive than their cheaper counterparts(CW and Mugler Cologne), but well worth the money!
    Rojas, Creeds and Xerjoffs are certainly PRICED like Rolls Royces and Bentleys, that part is true.
    Currently wearing: Tabac Blond by Caron

  26. #86
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by Starblind View Post
    Rojas, Creeds and Xerjoffs are certainly PRICED like Rolls Royces and Bentleys, that part is true.
    So when Roja Dove says his ingredients cost more than the price of gold, he is lying? https://observer.com/2016/07/these-p...ore-than-gold/

  27. #87
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by oudaddict View Post
    So when Roja Dove says his ingredients cost more than the price of gold, he is lying? https://observer.com/2016/07/these-p...ore-than-gold/
    Some perfume raw materials cost more than gold, that's a fact. But how can anyone know for certain that he is using them in his fragrances? Price doesn't necessarily reflects quality, especially not in perfume.

  28. #88

    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by oudaddict View Post
    So when Roja Dove says his ingredients cost more than the price of gold, he is lying? https://observer.com/2016/07/these-p...ore-than-gold/
    Hang on -- I'm still 'coming down' from looking at his jacket

  29. #89
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by PStoller View Post
    For $20K, a Toyota Corolla is arguably worth buying. For $200K, it inarguably isn't. Turin docks fragrances that are badged and priced like Ferraris if they perform like Corollas. That's where price comes into the picture.

    Whether you agree with his qualitative assessments is another matter. But he's not just slamming anything pricey.
    Quote Originally Posted by ccdan View Post
    But he doesn't do that. Rojas, Creeds and Xerjoffs are priced in most cases according to their perceived quality (many times above ordinary frags that are often liked by Turin)

    These are the Rolls Royces and the Bentleys of perfumery!
    I mean quality as perceived by Turin. Those fragrances are marketed as haute luxe, and their fans regard them as such, but that doesn’t obligate a reviewer to agree. Indeed, he wouldn’t be an independent reviewer if he did.

    If one wants to assume greater cost equals greater quality, well, hey, it’s easier. Who needs a review when you can just look at the price?
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    Default Re: Luca Turin's New Blog

    Quote Originally Posted by Scents And Sense View Post
    Some perfume raw materials cost more than gold, that's a fact. But how can anyone know for certain that he is using them in his fragrances? Price doesn't necessarily reflects quality, especially not in perfume.
    Indeed: see Creed and “ambergris.” Also, if Roja’s using them, who’s to say how much per bottle? And do expensive ingredients guarantee a good recipe? I mean, is any mashup of ambergris, orris root, saffron, oud, and mai rose automatically brilliant? Or does the art of the perfumer actually matter?

    I haven’t tried any of Roja’s fragrances. I might love them, and think them worth the price. I like some Clive Christian scents, dislike some others, and the cost of the fragrance or its constituent parts doesn’t affect that. But the price is certainly part of assessing the value to me: not that it’s better because it’s pricier, but that it had damned well better be better because it’s pricier.

    I do think ingredients matter, and I will pay more for good ones. But fragrance is more than ingredients, and cost reaches a point of diminishing returns: I prefer a reviewer who’s conscious of this.
    Currently wearing: Bandit by Robert Piguet




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