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  1. #31
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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    And as I wear it more, maybe too much citrus and the honey is killing me. Osmamthus abs might need more prominence. Musk and woods seem ok. But I’ll know more once the sample arrives. And GCMS is all set up... they only need 1ml and away we go. Anyone who wants in on the GCMS, it will be around $167 so we can all split the cost of a few join in. But again, I’m not trying to panhandle anyone. If you are interested, DM me and
    I’ll see how many we get.
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

  2. #32
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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    I was expecting a GCMS analysis to cost a lot more than that!

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    My sample of Nombre Noir arrived! A Scented Memory seems to be a good little shop. How is Nombre Noir??

    I think it smells amazing. I respectfully disagree with friends who posted earlier that it's "just ok". I think it is great. It is definitely early 80s. As soon as you smell it, you go back in time. I feel like I am playing Donkey Kong and Frogger at the arcade right now.

    It actually leans masculine, which is also retro. My first thought was "chypre" when I smelled it, but I don't see oakmoss or labdanum in the notes. There is an amber accord here with the benzoin, but I think it feels best describes as "oriental" since it is spicy, floral and dark. It is Shiseido's first western perfume, and feels like vintage Obsession if it was crossed with Opium. It dries down musky and honey. You really get punched by the damascones in the opening, and they last a while. Besides the up-front pepper and spiciness, it seems to have a little dihydro mercynol, as many women's fragrances used to have them (according the GCMS I've seen of classics) and not just male fragrances as you still see often today.

    My blind first formula is off in many ways. The honey is not an accord as I treated it, I think it is just a note that comes from some of the materials the perfumer used.

    While $44 for 3ml is expensive, I feel it is worth it compared to the $1,800 - $3,000 I've seen for a bottle. I am waiting for a few other samples to arrive and I'm sending it along with 11 others in for GCMS analysis (one is the $3,500 Roja Haute Luxe, just to see what is inside). I have 4 who expressed interest in chipping in for the Nombre Noir GCMS, and I'm trying to keep the price down to $30 or less for everyone. I'm going to buy the GCMS up front so I am not asking for money. Again, this isn't a profit making thing for me, just a fun experiment and learning about a classic, notorious fragrance.

    IMG-7001.jpg
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

  4. #34
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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Son In Law View Post
    My sample of Nombre Noir arrived! A Scented Memory seems to be a good little shop. How is Nombre Noir??

    I think it smells amazing. I respectfully disagree with friends who posted earlier that it's "just ok". I think it is great. It is definitely early 80s. As soon as you smell it, you go back in time. I feel like I am playing Donkey Kong and Frogger at the arcade right now.

    It actually leans masculine, which is also retro. My first thought was "chypre" when I smelled it, but I don't see oakmoss or labdanum in the notes. There is an amber accord here with the benzoin, but I think it feels best describes as "oriental" since it is spicy, floral and dark. It is Shiseido's first western perfume, and feels like vintage Obsession if it was crossed with Opium. It dries down musky and honey. You really get punched by the damascones in the opening, and they last a while. Besides the up-front pepper and spiciness, it seems to have a little dihydro mercynol, as many women's fragrances used to have them (according the GCMS I've seen of classics) and not just male fragrances as you still see often today.

    My blind first formula is off in many ways. The honey is not an accord as I treated it, I think it is just a note that comes from some of the materials the perfumer used.

    While $44 for 3ml is expensive, I feel it is worth it compared to the $1,800 - $3,000 I've seen for a bottle. I am waiting for a few other samples to arrive and I'm sending it along with 11 others in for GCMS analysis (one is the $3,500 Roja Haute Luxe, just to see what is inside). I have 4 who expressed interest in chipping in for the Nombre Noir GCMS, and I'm trying to keep the price down to $30 or less for everyone. I'm going to buy the GCMS up front so I am not asking for money. Again, this isn't a profit making thing for me, just a fun experiment and learning about a classic, notorious fragrance.

    IMG-7001.jpg
    What are the other 11?

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Casper_grassy View Post
    What are the other 11?
    I'm planning on GCMS analysis for some that I don't have and have always wanted...

    Eros (Versace)
    Scandal (JP Gaultier)
    Mojave Ghost (Byredo)
    Haute Luxe (Roja)
    Insolence (Guerlain)
    Miss Dior
    Nombre Noir (Shiseido)
    World (Kenzo)
    Flower (Kenzo)
    Portrait of a Lady (Frederick Malle)
    Bacarrat Rouge 540 (MFK)
    Velvet Orchid (Tom Ford)
    Dark Rebel Rider (John Varvatos) OR Unforgivable (Sean John)
    Angel (Mugler)
    Obsession, vintage (CK) **this should be cool, it is a 1985 bottle of Original Obsession
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

  6. #36
    Super Member Casper_grassy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Son In Law View Post
    I'm planning on GCMS analysis for some that I don't have and have always wanted...

    Eros (Versace)
    Scandal (JP Gaultier)
    Mojave Ghost (Byredo)
    Haute Luxe (Roja)
    Insolence (Guerlain)
    Miss Dior
    Nombre Noir (Shiseido)
    World (Kenzo)
    Flower (Kenzo)
    Portrait of a Lady (Frederick Malle)
    Bacarrat Rouge 540 (MFK)
    Velvet Orchid (Tom Ford)
    Dark Rebel Rider (John Varvatos) OR Unforgivable (Sean John)
    Angel (Mugler)
    Obsession, vintage (CK) **this should be cool, it is a 1985 bottle of Original Obsession
    I tried to recreate baccarat, got nowhere lol but that was about a yr ago
    Strangely enough I was about to buy angel cause my girl dragged me to ulta, but it’s so much cheaper online.
    I never smelled anything from kenzo, you sparked some interest
    I’ll chip in for the baccarat

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Casper_grassy View Post
    I tried to recreate baccarat, got nowhere lol but that was about a yr ago
    Strangely enough I was about to buy angel cause my girl dragged me to ulta, but it’s so much cheaper online.
    I never smelled anything from kenzo, you sparked some interest
    I’ll chip in for the baccarat
    I got pretty close with Baccarat by nose, but it is still a little too intense compared to the light, transparency of the real BR540. So I want to see what he did to achieve that besides Hedione, etc.

    Same perfumer, Francis Kurkdjian, did Kenzo World. And it shares some similarities in sweetness and simplicity. I want to see how much ambroxan is used, how he did peony, etc.

    Kenzo Flower is my boy Alberto Morillas
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

  8. #38
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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    I sent you a PM about the GCMS.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Son In Law View Post
    I got pretty close with Baccarat by nose, but it is still a little too intense compared to the light, transparency of the real BR540. So I want to see what he did to achieve that besides Hedione, etc.

    Same perfumer, Francis Kurkdjian, did Kenzo World. And it shares some similarities in sweetness and simplicity. I want to see how much ambroxan is used, how he did peony, etc.

    Kenzo Flower is my boy Alberto Morillas
    I went back and looked at some old notes trying to recreate it so I messed around a bit today, surprisingly I got closer using firascone rather than safranal. I put the firascone it at .1%, also jasmin specialty from firmenich was in that direction, though I do feel it could just be a shit ton of benzyl acetate, it is a really soft frag so idk. Also I put 30% hedione and 6% benzyl salicylate, it seems to be in the right direction. I waited about 2 hrs and I can barely smell the cedarwood, so I went with cedryl acetate again low dose but it still comes out a bit much. I’ll keep messing around

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Count me in for BR540 - I live for that dry down!

  11. #41

    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    This is very interesting, I've been looking around the Internet to see what else I could find about this fragrence alot of mention about damascones, natural orris and various discriptions from it being lipstic powdery to dark and slightly smokey chypre like. I personally dont trust any perfume reviews f*ing fabulous is an extreme but great example why but the idea of you trying to modernise this perfume seems like a well worth endeavour

  12. #42
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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Casper_grassy View Post
    I went back and looked at some old notes trying to recreate it so I messed around a bit today, surprisingly I got closer using firascone rather than safranal. I put the firascone it at .1%, also jasmin specialty from firmenich was in that direction, though I do feel it could just be a shit ton of benzyl acetate, it is a really soft frag so idk. Also I put 30% hedione and 6% benzyl salicylate, it seems to be in the right direction. I waited about 2 hrs and I can barely smell the cedarwood, so I went with cedryl acetate again low dose but it still comes out a bit much. I’ll keep messing around
    Interesting, so can you share your formula? Curious how you modified it.
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Son In Law View Post
    Interesting, so can you share your formula? Curious how you modified it.
    Absolutely young fella, this is no way complete.
    I think I'm in the right direction, but it just always seem way sharper than the actual. When I increase the Jasmine it gets too jasminey, and I think the jasmin specialty is a good choice for it lacks indole as opposed to sambac per se. I'll give it another go today.
    Also this is over 1000, haven't worked out the new %'s because I just kept adding shit and there was no reason to. So after another trial or 2 I can post my next one. I think because of the added suederal and the amount of methyl ionone it changed it a lot so I'm thinking to raise some other quantities and lower those. I'm gonna actually work on it right now, putting things on hold for you haha
    And lastly, BR540 is practically linear, this moves a bit, whatever softness I get from the strip goes away around 20-30 mins and just becomes a powdery woody carnival.

    Hedione...................................300
    Benzyl Salicylate.......................60
    Firascone...................................5 (If you are to use safranal I would dose it lower, it's too sharp)
    Beta Damascone.......................2
    Vanillin......................................50 (Could be ethyl Vanillin but I haven't tried though sweeter I think it's softer so maybe if dosed lower idk)
    Labdanum 50%........................30(15) (I think boisambreine may be useful here off descriptions, never smelled it)
    Ambroxan.................................10
    Ambergris T Oliffac...................40
    Fir Balsam..................................5 (Strong as hell, I don't have the resin but the labdanum is giving that impression. This could be a useless ingredient.
    Kohinool..................................100
    Iso E Super..............................150
    Cedryl Acetate..........................15
    Cosmone...................................5
    Exaltolide..................................25
    Ethylene Brassylate.................80
    Romandolide............................80(Unfortun ately I'm out of galaxolide, in my older trials I had galaxolide at 100. I lowered it, I think it is better and probably used in actual frag)
    PEAlcohol.................................50
    Methyl Ionone Gamma.............60
    Ionone Beta..............................20
    Strawberry Oliffac....................50 (going for dainty)
    Helional....................................10
    Benzyl Acetate.........................10 (I think leave this is out, it gets too bubblegummy)
    Suederal...................................10 ( trying to achieve that rubbery facet to BR540 but I think it's working with the labdanum and gives more leathery, so that has to get worked on, possibly if I sub labdanum with benzoin this may alleviate it, but Idk.
    Coumarin..................................8
    Cis-3-hexenyl salicylate............8 (I think this can be dubbed completely)


    BTW I wouldn't waste time making this, give me a day or so, I'm inspired to get close now

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Casper_grassy View Post
    Absolutely young fella, this is no way complete.
    I think I'm in the right direction, but it just always seem way sharper than the actual. When I increase the Jasmine it gets too jasminey, and I think the jasmin specialty is a good choice for it lacks indole as opposed to sambac per se. I'll give it another go today.
    Also this is over 1000, haven't worked out the new %'s because I just kept adding shit and there was no reason to. So after another trial or 2 I can post my next one. I think because of the added suederal and the amount of methyl ionone it changed it a lot so I'm thinking to raise some other quantities and lower those. I'm gonna actually work on it right now, putting things on hold for you haha
    And lastly, BR540 is practically linear, this moves a bit, whatever softness I get from the strip goes away around 20-30 mins and just becomes a powdery woody carnival.

    Hedione...................................300
    Benzyl Salicylate.......................60
    Firascone...................................5 (If you are to use safranal I would dose it lower, it's too sharp)
    Beta Damascone.......................2
    Vanillin......................................50 (Could be ethyl Vanillin but I haven't tried though sweeter I think it's softer so maybe if dosed lower idk)
    Labdanum 50%........................30(15) (I think boisambreine may be useful here off descriptions, never smelled it)
    Ambroxan.................................10
    Ambergris T Oliffac...................40
    Fir Balsam..................................5 (Strong as hell, I don't have the resin but the labdanum is giving that impression. This could be a useless ingredient.
    Kohinool..................................100
    Iso E Super..............................150
    Cedryl Acetate..........................15
    Cosmone...................................5
    Exaltolide..................................25
    Ethylene Brassylate.................80
    Romandolide............................80(Unfortun ately I'm out of galaxolide, in my older trials I had galaxolide at 100. I lowered it, I think it is better and probably used in actual frag)
    PEAlcohol.................................50
    Methyl Ionone Gamma.............60
    Ionone Beta..............................20
    Strawberry Oliffac....................50 (going for dainty)
    Helional....................................10
    Benzyl Acetate.........................10 (I think leave this is out, it gets too bubblegummy)
    Suederal...................................10 ( trying to achieve that rubbery facet to BR540 but I think it's working with the labdanum and gives more leathery, so that has to get worked on, possibly if I sub labdanum with benzoin this may alleviate it, but Idk.
    Coumarin..................................8
    Cis-3-hexenyl salicylate............8 (I think this can be dubbed completely)


    BTW I wouldn't waste time making this, give me a day or so, I'm inspired to get close now
    Oh I'm confused. I thought you were trying to make Nombre Noir. You are making BR540?? But thank you for sharing! Also you have to have ethyl maltol, Evernyl and Amberwood to make BR540. But you subbed kohinool for the Amberwood, which may work, I don't know. We are off topic anyway...
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Son In Law View Post
    Oh I'm confused. I thought you were trying to make Nombre Noir. You are making BR540?? But thank you for sharing! Also you have to have ethyl maltol, Evernyl and Amberwood to make BR540. But you subbed kohinool for the Amberwood, which may work, I don't know. We are off topic anyway...
    Lmao, sorry, it's cause I asked about the gc you're doing on it haha.
    Yeah I don't have amberwood which was why I had to work around it. It isn't far off though. I don't pick up anything evernyl, let's go for it.
    F'ing MALTOL! you brilliant man

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    1.5ml samples ready to go. Waiting on a couple more from Beverly Hills Perfumery and I'll send off to Canada. Thanks to Paul for recommending the lab. Based on the GCMS samples they sent me, they should do a good job and their service has been great and they gave very clear instructions on sending. I also decided on analyzing Aventus, even though I am not a fan.

    IMG-7003.jpg
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    6 people have asked about the Nombre Noir GCMS, so that will keep the cost down for each of us. I have added a couple more vintage perfumes I have always wanted to shoot... a 1950s L'Air du Temps, a 1997 Le Male (Gaultier), and a 17Y01 batch of Aventus. Along with the 1985 Obsession (I bought 4 just to make sure I get a decent one), this should be interesting to see the results.

    I have made no progress in making anything close to it using my nose only. Maybe I'm keeping damascones at IFRA levels and they didn't back then? Or some other materials are abnormally high? Anyway, this one is hard to figure out. I made Ariana Grande Cloud for my daughter (she was pissed that the bottle isn't the cool blue and white cartoon cloud) and that one is pretty easy to pick out.

    As soon as I can bottle samples of these vintage frags, I will send on Nombre Noir and a dozen other. Stay tuned.
    Last edited by Devil's Son In Law; 17th September 2020 at 04:22 AM.
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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    10 samples being packed up to send to the lab on Monday. I am still waiting on the vintage Le Male and vintage L'Air du Temps from the 1950s. But Nombre Noir, the "grail" Aventus, and vintage CK Obsession from 1985 (parfum strength) are going to be interesting to see the results!

    IMG-7019.jpg
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

  19. #49

    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    DSiL, bon chance!

    Also, the way you store all your ACs... youíre not worried about vapor phase interaction with the squeezy rubber top??? Iím sure your dropper tubes are glass (not plastic) like the bottles, but Iíve had to abandon those droppers in the lab for some chemicals because of vapor phase interaction with the upper rubber part... starts to get brittle or starts turning to gel.

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    I have a lot with normal cone tops and I use pipettes for those. But these main common materials I just use the droppers and have only replaced a handful. They are doing fine because I dilute to 20%. At full strength it would be much worse. But I understand the issue and I’m Investigating silicone. But I don’t find it that bad when materials are diluted.
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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Wow, looking good! Yeah, those droppers do look convenient. If I can find silicone droppers at some stage I reckon I'll change over to those.

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Note to all of those who have asked to get on board the Nombre Noir GCMS... the lab in Canada (PhytoChemia) emailed me and said there is a memory problem with their computer system to download the reports, which were due today. So there will be a delay while they get the system fixed. She said it is nothing that affects the accuracy of the report.

    We have enough people to get the price down below $20 a person so far if the exchange rate stays constant. And a few of you wanted to be part of the other GCMS reports I ordered (Aventus, BR 540, Le Male, etc.) so those are on the way also. Sorry for the delay, nothing I can do except wait!
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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    GOOD NEWS! The GCMS reports came in today! I won't be publishing it on here since about 9 of us are sharing the cost of the GCMS, which should be under $17 for each of us, a good deal. But I will give a few highlights on what they found. Here is what the lead technician said about it...

    Today, the results of 20I23-SIP01 (Black Number) are quite intriguing for this mythical perfume. The sample contains very few components.
    Nice how she translated Nombre Noir into the French name Interesting how it was found to be at 57.8% alcohol. There is also a good bit of DPG in this, which dilutes it further. I'll have to add up all of the DPG isomers to get the final percentage since it was split into about 6 isomers at various percentages.

    What I plan to do now is figure out what percentage of the formula the naturals like cedar and jasmine are, then decode some of the chemical names into their standard nomenclature (like "Atraric acid" is just Everynyl (Verymoss) in case you didn't know... I didn't either).

    Also funny was she sent the reports before I paid. She said I would be invoiced within 5 days. So I will get the final cost and then send it out to all those who asked to get a copy. I'll DM the team the details once I get them. Before I send the report, I also want to decode it and build a first trial and give it to the team, since some of you said you were unsure of how to take a GCMS and create a formula from it. We can do it together over an email group and share our findings.

    I also got the other GCMS reports from fragrances I was curious about and as expected, the $3,500 Roja Haute Luxe was very complex and full of lots of naturals. So this makes the GCMS harder to decipher. Also incredibly complex was the original Calvin Klein Obsession. This one was the longest molecule list of the 10 samples. Here is the overall assessment in the report before the list of chemicals:

    Calvin Klein Obsession (vintage)
    This fragrance contains 55.4% ethanol by peak area on DB-5 column without correction factor. In addition to individual ingredients, this base contains roman chamomile (isobutyl isobutyrate, propyl angelate, methallyl angelate), lavender (lavandulol, lavandulyl acetate), sandalwood (teresantalic acid, santalols), patchouli (patchoulol, patchoulene), cedarwood (thujopsene, cedrenes, cedrol), jasmine absolute (isophytol, hexenyl benzoate), clary sage (sclareol), frankincense CO2 (serratol, 24-norursa-3,12-diene), a hint of vetiver (kushimol) and possibly orris (irone).
    The older perfumes also had now banned EU materials like Lilial and Lyral.

    Finally, it is interesting to see two side by side comparisons of Francis Kurkdjian, Kenzo World and BR 540. You can see his signature and similarities in the two GCMS reports, which is really surprising that there would be such a similarity in materials and the percentages of these materials in two different perfumes which are both very sweet, but one is peony and the other jasmine.
    Last edited by Devil's Son In Law; 15th October 2020 at 12:06 AM.
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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    When you recreate it , will you please compare the two?

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolieo View Post
    When you recreate it , will you please compare the two?
    Which two things are you referring to?
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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Original perfume and recreation. I am interested if you can come close between your nose and gcms , or how close.

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Ahh, ok. Yes can do. I’m working it now. The naturals are the thing that needs help from the nose. You can estimate how much cedarwood is used for example by the levels of the various components of cedarwood in the GCMS. It doesn’t tell you “use 5.6% cedarwood” but instead shows all of the various moloecules in cedarwood and their individual levels. By analyzing these levels, you can get close to figuring out the percentage of cedarwood oil.
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

  28. #58
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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Son In Law View Post
    Ahh, ok. Yes can do. I’m working it now. The naturals are the thing that needs help from the nose. You can estimate how much cedarwood is used for example by the levels of the various components of cedarwood in the GCMS. It doesn’t tell you “use 5.6% cedarwood” but instead shows all of the various moloecules in cedarwood and their individual levels. By analyzing these levels, you can get close to figuring out the percentage of cedarwood oil.

    Very interesting stuff! I’m excited to dig in, this is my first time working in this manor. This should be fun.

  29. #59

    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    I'd be interested in chipping in for a copy of the GCMS. Not sure the best way to make it equitable for everyone else who paid but I'm open to ideas.

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Nombre Noir team, I know this may sound crazy, but I have decided I am going to get another sample and do a second GCMS. After reviewing the GCMS, I believe the lab is great based on the other 9 perfumes they analyzed, which were all on point and very detailed. The lab said they were surprised at the small amount of material found in Nombre, which peaked my interest. This could either be interesting but also bad if it means the sample is either fake, contaminated or oxidized. The sample I got seemed legit, the color was accurate, and it smelled great. But I need a second sample to verify and I am going to pay for another sample. Bottom line, I believe I am missing key chemicals that should have been in the GCMS.

    Nobody has paid for this GCMS, so I am assuming all of this cost. I will DM the team on what each of you want to do going forward.

    Again, the lab was great. The reports are long and detailed, with all of the data and graphs at the end, and signed by a PhD chemist for validity. Nombre Noir was the only sample decant in the lot, the rest were sprayed by me directly from the original bottle into new 5ml glass sample vials and immediately sealed. So for this reason, I need to get a second sample of Nombre to make sure I am getting valid results. I know this sounds a little excessive, but I want to be accurate.
    Last edited by Devil's Son In Law; 17th October 2020 at 06:07 AM.
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)




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