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  1. #1
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    Default The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Hello fellow mad blenders. I just had this idea a few minutes ago and thought I would share it... I want to:
    (1) Buy a sample of the legendary Nombre Noir by Shiseido from 1982.
    (2) Send it off for GCMS analysis.
    (3) Write a formula and modernize it (even if GCMS fails).
    (4) Make it.

    For those that don't know the legend of Nombre Noir, a combination of leaking bottles, origami boxes that drove packaging costs that lost money, and an overdose of damascones and damascenones caused the remaining bottles to be destroyed with a steamroller and the perfumer committed suicide.



    STORY HERE:
    https://www.fragrantica.com/news/Nom...One-11786.html

    Is anyone interested in collaborating on a formula? And, who can recommend a good place for GCMS and what amount should I buy? 2ml will be expensive enough so is this sufficient? Thanks!

    Top
    aldehydes, bergamot, marjoram, coriander and rosewood
    Mid
    osmanthus, rose, geranium, jasmine, ylang-ylang, orris root, carnation and lily of the valley
    Base
    sandalwood, vetiver, honey, amber, musk, benzoin and tonka

    (p.s. I love the Blade Runner-style ad!)
    (p.s.s. This is strictly academic, not for selling)
    nombre_ad.jpg
    nombre_box.jpg
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

  2. #2
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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Looking over the Nombre Noir GCMS result, you will need a very high resolution result to see the Carrot seed and dill dosages.
    It's not actually that impressive of a perfume.
    I'm not sure if I agree, but some people have said they like my work even better than Nombre Noir.
    The formula isn't really too much in need of modernizing, unless you want to change out the alpha hexyl cinnamaldehyde dosage, which is at 10.6%
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Ah cool! Thanks Paul, so sounds like you are way out ahead of me

    Any GCMS company/facility you can recommend, I’d appreciate it. I don’t think Perfumer’s Apprentice is going to cut it?

    I’m guessing the carrot seed is there to cut the orris, which I understand is an long-standing technique.
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    I've stopped sending gc tests to PA. You can see what results you get from Laboratoire Phytochemia. If not satisfied, you can go to Creative Accord, for even more intense resolution and price.

    Carrot seed EO is a part of an orris extender formula. I don't think that there is any real orris in Noir, just a whole lot of Alpha Methyl ionone.
    But likely there is real jasmine in Noir.

    Another Perfumer's Nombre Noir imitation formula in my possession is quite different from the GC result that I have. Both might be nice, but I can't say, as I have not made either one.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    I'm into the idea of this kind of exercise, and open to contributing a small amount of money to this kind of collaborative endeavour. I have no idea on the cost of obtaining GCMS but perhaps if you got quotes, you could start a crowd funding page which could be helped by people on this forum?

    I'm brand new so I'm not going to be any help in the blending process.

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Awesome Paul, thanks for the advice. I’ll give those a go. First is sourcing a sample, of course. And I don’t think a full bottle is economical at $2,800...
    https://fragrancevault.net/products/...-de-parfum-4ml

    James, great! And I wasn’t intending to ask people for money, just if they wanted to help write a formula. But if people want to get the GCMS I think throwing in some money would be ok with me. I’ll float the GCMS and then see who wants a copy. Otherwise, we can write our own based on these notes and then see how the GCMS compares. At the same time, I’ll find the best price on a sample I can find, and hopefully it is authentic.
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    It's an incredible story. I do sometimes wonder if some of this wasn't the slightest bit manufactured mystique.. the steamrollers particularly. But I wouldn't care if it was.

    I asked Sultan Pasha recently if he was a fan, as I know sometimes he'll recreate/modernize "unicorn" scents as attars (for example his Irisoir was recently presented at the Osmotheque in relation to Iris Gris).

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    I looked that up Proust, that is interesting. So he did not make an attar version of Nombre Noir, I assume?
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Ok, 3ml sample purchased. “Homie don’t play.”
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    I’d chip in a little too
    I am more interested in whether you could recreate a perfume from a profile.
    Have you smelled it before, or is the sample going to be the first time? Because, what I’d you didn’t like it? I m going to read the story now...

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Hey Jolieo
    Sure, I try to write formulas “blind” all the time when I see interesting notes. It is purely an exercise... helps figure out the whole process. Creating accords, understanding materials, understanding composition and the relative strengths between materials to achieve balance. It’s great.

    But, usually I find I’m off. I usually make things stronger than the real thing. Once I smell the real perfume, I usually have my supporting accords too strong compared to the main structure. Like the Escentric 05... it was more woody and herbal than the real perfume was. The real one was mostly floral and citrus. Once I smelled it, however, I knew what to do and I got it close. Habit got it and Bkkorn are about to get a sample of mine and the real one and see how I did

    I’d like to do the same thing for Nombre Noir and see if anyone has a better idea than my formula. Maybe someone has a better take than mine. After the sample comes, I’ll see how it compares. Then hopefully the GCMS works and I can check the work and make a formula based on the GCMS and do the final comparison.

    I’m going to play 99 Luftballons while I spray it because that is so 1982
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Son In Law View Post
    I’m going to play 99 Luftballons while I spray it because that is so 1982
    Gotta set the scene!

    EDIT:
    Just realised that what I wrote was too off-topic and should have been a new thread but it can wait!

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    I love osmanthus, I even got a plant- not enough flowers yet for enfleurage, hoping. Sounds like loads of fun . Post here if you want to crowd source, I ll chip in a little!
    When things go wrong we could send it to a depot and have them bulldozed ! What a ritual. But I don’t believe it, there would have to have some employees that would rescue at least some of those bottles.... I know I would have!

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    I’ve tried Nombre Noir. It didn’t seem like a big deal, but it was nice. I thought of it as a restrained Ho Hang Club.

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolieo View Post
    I love osmanthus, I even got a plant- not enough flowers yet for enfleurage, hoping.
    I, too have tried to start an Osmanthus plant from a cutting - still early days. Such an amazing aroma. I read that the flowers grow when the branch is 5 years old - so if you cut the branch, you'll need to wait another 5 years. Don't cut it!

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Double posted the same thing, oops

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    This is a bit morbid but definitely interesting, and I can’t seem to find much on the perfumer. I am weary the story has been modified to make it seem the perfumer offed himself for his creations failure, which in all honesty didn’t have much to do with his formula. As a perfumer I doubt he hand crimped every bottle and made origami boxes (being french he was probably not good at origami anyway lol). Also what if shiseido was operated by yakuza, loss of $, they had to do what they had to do(sorry, filmbuff) You never know and looking at the notes at least I can’t see where marjoram comes into play. Though personal, ambers and green notes, “yuck!”

    This is a cool idea all in all though, i wouldn’t mind taking an ol’ gander at the gcms

    Edit: yes marjoram is aromatic, i’m exaggerrating

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolieo View Post
    I love osmanthus, I even got a plant- not enough flowers yet for enfleurage, hoping. Sounds like loads of fun . Post here if you want to crowd source, I ll chip in a little!
    When things go wrong we could send it to a depot and have them bulldozed ! What a ritual. But I don’t believe it, there would have to have some employees that would rescue at least some of those bottles.... I know I would have!
    Haha sounds good. Sure, the perfume may not be as interesting as the story, but it's fun so why not. I remember a documentary about old Atari video games that were buried in a landfill because they didn't sell (E.T. for example )
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_video_game_burial

    Andyway, I have made an osmanthus accord but does anyone have any advice on how to bring out the damasceones besides pushing them to the IFRA limit? Is there another way to bring the nuance out WITHOUT damasceones? Maybe by adding tobacco (which I get from beta) and hexyl acetate (apple, like I get from akpha). I wonder if this will work. Osmanthus accords would be apreciated, if you want to share. I will share what I have once I finish a rough sketch.
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Bavard View Post
    I’ve tried Nombre Noir. It didn’t seem like a big deal, but it was nice. I thought of it as a restrained Ho Hang Club.
    Ah, interesting. Racy and very 80s ad also...
    https://colognoisseur.com/tag/balenciaga-ho-hang/

    So did the osmanthus stick out to you as primary or was it more rose?
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

  20. #20

    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Son In Law View Post
    I looked that up Proust, that is interesting. So he did not make an attar version of Nombre Noir, I assume?
    He did not!

    Also I accidentally deleted part of my post. He has not worked on a Nombre Noir type attar but mentioned that if I was looking for a similar experience he found Dusita’s La Duoceur de Siam a non-clone non-note specific sister perfume that would probably make me happy. Take from that what you will ;-)

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Son In Law View Post
    Ah, interesting. Racy and very 80s ad also...
    https://colognoisseur.com/tag/balenciaga-ho-hang/

    So did the osmanthus stick out to you as primary or was it more rose?
    That link was for Ho Hang and not Club, which are totally different. The Club is a musky rose and carnation with woods and possibly nitromusks.

    I had a little sample of Nombre Noir that I passed on to IsoESuperman. To me, it was a rose fragrance with a bunch of other musky type notes around it. I love a good rose fragrance, so I thought it was grand, but the mystique doesn't really come from the juice, in this case, I don't think, thus my reference to Ho Hang Club.

    If someone wants a fragrance with rose that also has lots of nice musky, woody smells around it, it occurs to me that they could step up to Ho Hang Club. That's just my impression. Gucci had a nice rose fragrance, L'Arte di Gucci. Also a good alternative, from memory.

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Bavard View Post
    That link was for Ho Hang and not Club, which are totally different. The Club is a musky rose and carnation with woods and possibly nitromusks.

    I had a little sample of Nombre Noir that I passed on to IsoESuperman. To me, it was a rose fragrance with a bunch of other musky type notes around it. I love a good rose fragrance, so I thought it was grand, but the mystique doesn't really come from the juice, in this case, I don't think, thus my reference to Ho Hang Club.

    If someone wants a fragrance with rose that also has lots of nice musky, woody smells around it, it occurs to me that they could step up to Ho Hang Club. That's just my impression. Gucci had a nice rose fragrance, L'Arte di Gucci. Also a good alternative, from memory.
    Ah, I see the difference...
    https://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/...lub-14435.html
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    I'm going to start with this and shape some accords...

    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/...dm1072041.html
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Son In Law View Post
    I'm going to start with this and shape some accords...

    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/...dm1072041.html
    I’ve made this before it does smell nice, I’ve never smelled real osmanthus so I can’t really speak on it, I just felt the c-14 was a bit overbearing when I used this accord amongst other things unless that’s what it’s supposed to do then disregard me

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Sounds like a fascinating project. Interested to hear how it turns out.

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    VERSION 1: Again, blind. Tried to proportion the accords according to the prominent notes. The floral accord is not broken up by flower, rather it is one accord of rose, osmanthus, lily, carnation and jasmine. Real sandalwood along with a Firmenich base. The result will be tested when the sample of Nombre Noir arrives, but it is strangely a little cresyl-like. It has no cresyl, or para-cresyl, but I'm feeling that it does for some reason. But next is the sample and GCMS. DAMASCENONE TOTAL was used just below the IFRA limit. Critiques are welcome!

    Top: 18%, Mid: 43%, Base: 38%. Naturals: 22% (by weight)
    Floral accord: 47%, Musk: 28%, Sweet: 10%, Wood: 9%, Citrus: 4%, Spice and Aquatic: ~1%

    Hedione® (Firmenich).................................500... .Floral....15.63%
    PHENYL ETHYL ALCOHOL.......................300....Floral ....9.38%
    Benzyl acetate........................................... .150....Floral....4.69%
    CITRONELLOL COEUR (IFF)....................100....Flora....3.13%
    METHYL IONONE ALPHA EXTRA (IFF).....70....Floral....2.19%
    Hydroxycitronellal ........................................50....Flor al....1.56%
    ETHYL LINALOOL.......................................50. ...Floral....1.56%
    CITRONELLYL ACETATE............................30....Floral... .0.94%
    Geraniol (95).............................................. ..30....Floral....0.94%
    ROSE DAMASK ABS MOROCCO..............30....Floral....0.94%
    Orris Butter Tincture (20%)..........................20....Floral....0.6 3%
    Jasmine ABS, India......................................20....F loral....0.63%
    Hexenol cis-3 FCC (Leaf Alcohol)................15....Floral....0.47%
    Jasmone Cis............................................... ..15....Floral....0.47%
    DAMASCENONE TOTAL @ 50%................15....Floral....0.47%
    Cyclamen Aldehyde......................................10.. ..Floral....0.31%
    Osmanthus ABS...........................................10.. ..Floral....0.31%
    Lilyflore® (Firmenich).....................................7. ...Floral....0.22%
    Eugenol........................................... ...............7....Floral....0.22%
    Ylang Ylang Absolute.....................................5.... Flora....0.16%
    Geranium Oil, Egypt P&N...............................5....Floral....0 .16%
    Aldehyde C-14 PEACH..................................3....Floral ....0.09%
    Gardenol (styrallyl Acetate)............................2....Floral... .0.06%
    Indole @ 50%............................................... ..2....Floral....0.06%
    Aldehyde Supra (Firmenich)...........................2....Floral. ...0.06%
    Bergamot FCF - Organic..............................100....Citrus ....3.13%
    Limonene D (Natural).....................................20.. ..Citrus....0.63%
    Benzoin Extract EB 70%..............................150....Sweet....4 .69%
    HONEY SIGNATURE 50%...........................100....Sweet....3.13 %
    VANILLIN @ 50%.........................................100... .Sweet....3.13%
    BEESWAX ABSOLUTE..................................70....Sw eet....2.19%
    TONKA BEAN ABSOLUTE (IFF) 50%...........50....Sweet....1.56%
    Rosewood (Bois de Rose)............................150....Wood....4. 69%
    ORGANIC SANDALWOOD MYSORE............70....Wood....2.19%
    MYSORE WOOD (Firmenich).........................30....Wood.... 0.94%
    Vetiver, Haiti - Organic ....................................30....Wood.... 0.94%
    Galaxolide (IFF) @ 100%..............................500....Musk....1 5.63%
    EXALTOLIDE® TOTAL..................................300....Musk ....9.38%
    MUSCONE - 962195 FIRMENICH..................50....Musk....1.56%
    CORIANDER EO.............................................20. ...Spice....0.63%
    Marjoram (Sweet) EO........................................7....Spi ce....0.22%
    Carrot Seed EB................................................ .1....Spice....0.03%
    HELIONAL (IFF)............................................. ...3....Aquatic....0.09%
    Last edited by Devil's Son In Law; 8th September 2020 at 08:08 PM.
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

  27. #27

    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Quite the experimenting/learning creative roll you’re on lately. Run with it. Bon chance.

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Do you like it at this stage? Any impressions? I would have to buy15 materials, some of which I will get soon anyway. I would love to see a more final version so I can buy the right materials...
    This is fun too!

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Hey Jolieo, its ok for a starting point but something is bothering me in it. I'm going to try without the orris and boost the methyl ionone instead. And maybe its the ylang, but it's low so I can't see it being the problem.

    I heard back from Laboratoire Phytochemia and they were responsive and the price is good. They will also try and identify naturals used. But, of course, they won't be able to tell you bases used made up of several aroma chemicals. They will just identify the components of that base. So once I get the sample, I will send it for analysis.
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)

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    Default Re: The Nombre Noir open project... the world's most notorious perfume

    Actually I'm going to blame the Hexenol cis-3 FCC (Leaf Alcohol). I think it is too high and I'll take it around 0.1% or lower.
    Andrew Hugg, Lieutenant Colonel, USAF (retired)




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