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  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Group buy on milligram scales

    Hi all... I know this is a bit unorthodox, so I cleared it with furrypine first.

    I've got a line on a good deal for the MyWeigh iBalance i311 but I need at least 3 other people in with me to make it work. So looking to organize a group buy. We'll be able to get the scale cheaper than anywhere I've found it offered for online.

    About me: I am just starting to get more serious about blending scents and need to acquire a milligram scale. I don't know anyone locally who is into perfumery, so I'm hoping to connect online with some other beginners who, like me, don't have a good scale yet but want one (or maybe you're not a beginner and you just need a new scale!)

    All discussions of payment, delivery, and so on were asked to be kept to PM. So either please PM me or post your interest here and I'll PM you with details. Once we have enough participants, the thread will be closed.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Well, that's really something that you get to decide when threads are closed.

    And quite impressive you've already moved up to group buys having had only 2 posts before this one.

    Reported as spam and/or scam.

    Good scales (balances) are readily available from many sources including eBay at very affordable prices with no need of Johnny-on-the-spot organizers who collect money from our members and dictate when threads will be closed.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    What are some good ones, Bill? Or signs to look for that a scale is good?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Pretty harsh criticism for someone who presumably cleared the post with a mod and community member, and was seemingly asked to keep discussion to PMs.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Considering we aren't allowed to do group buys for things that actually need group buys even when established for years and thousands of posts, I find it pretty darn strange this individual apparenty is so much more special and privileged than we are, or if he or she is not more special, why he or she is allowed it and we are not.

    Can I know when we peons may use the forum for group buys, or do we need to get our join date moved up to 2020 and our post counts down to 2 before we can use the forum to ask money be sent to us?

    And btw, the forum does not show edits done fairly early on. None of the material about clearing with furrypine was there when I posted, or at least I do not believe so. No way to verify, since as I said the forum doesn't show early edits. (E.g., this one is edited right now.) It was simply out of nowhere. I would have written differently had that been there, but I still would not at all agree with a 2-post new member asking to set up group buy, let alone on something like this. And it's especially special that there was no conversation or questions about balances first. Do we know so little about them we weren't worth asking, except for money?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Hi Bavard! I will use the search function both here and on the Web later. The type that Paul and I use, as well as at least one or two more, is apparently rebranded or no-branded according to the retailer or distributor's preference but is visually distinctive. I believe I can find again really, or find e-mail receipt.

    EDIT: Was able to find e-mail receipt quickly.

    https://www.ebay.com/p/22016607136?iid=293069801124

    I have had no issues whatsoever with this balance. It is repeatable within 1 mg. It outperforms, by roughly a factor of three, my older Ohaus which I don't know the price for new but believe to have been well over $1000, albeit being that expensive because with older technology there was no way such precision at anything like this price.

    Paul had troubles with his until he found that relieving static electricity solved it. I live in a more humid area (Florida) and never encountered such problem.

    His differs from mine in being a 500 g unit rather than 200 g. The 200 g I think, from the specs, is more precise and I did not need to weigh more than that at a time, and on the rare occasions I do, I still have the Ohaus.

    As for the OP's intended balance, who saw no need to engage with us in any discussion or questions on balances, it has a better cage for keeping out air currents. That seems the only plus for the higher price. A review page I found on it -- https://www.oldwillknottscales.com/m...roduct-reviews -- does not look good. Of particular concern is the finding:

    This set of scales has an auto stabilization function that will not allow it to weigh individual pellets of powder. If you are looking for high accuracy powder measurement, this is not your scale.
    This is an EXTRAORDINARILY ANNOYING AND FRUSTRATING feature that some Chinese companies put on their scales. I have it on a piece of junk I paid $29 for, for some minor tasks but did not know it would do this. What it means is, when the balance "thinks" the weight is near a round value, it jumps right to that value! An absolutely unacceptable property.

    As for the OP's item, is a $367.60 balance on that site.

    In general, accuracy, precision, and readability are three different things and so first, to clarify on these:

    Readability: Pretty much just what it says, how closely one may read the weight. For example, a production balance at work has readability to only one gram (it is able to weigh 40 kilos at least), however in and of itself that says nothing about how precise or accurate its internal measurement is. A balance could read to one gram, but read 5 grams different this time than it does that time. Or, it could virtually always read the same thing, only changing if something happens to be almost exactly at XX.500 g.

    The work balance is like this. I don't know how precise it is internally, but I expect it's something like 0.1 g, at least with weights up to 1000 g. However, as you can't read it, it's not part of the readability.

    Precision: The degree to which the balance reads nearly the same every time. Let's say I have a balance with 0.001 g readability, but one time I measure something and the balance says 352 mg, another time it says 349, and another 354. Roughly speaking its precision is probably about +/- 3 mg.

    Accuracy: The extent to which the reading is correct, compared to true weight. If a scale performs well on calibration weights then accuracy should be similar to precision.

    So one wants to look at the precision mostly, which isn't necessarily the same as readability, and wants it to not go jump to round values, or jump to values it has recently weighed. That's another annoying feature of some junk from China. It makes it look more precise. "Oh wow, I put the same thing on many times in a row and I always get the same value!" A con-job in some cases.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    I do believe this is the scale Bill is referring to. I have this very same scale (branded by US Solid), but as Bill states....you can find this scale rebranded by many names...sometimes even cheaper than what this link lists it for.

    https://ussolid.com/200-x-0-001g-ana...ion-scale.html
    ...bathing in perfumes...
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    That looks like a nice scale to me, and Bkkorn is know by me personally not to be a bot, rather a talented perfumer, so I would go with something like that.

    Ah - I see Bill's update as well. The prices are looking even better.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Considering we aren't allowed to do group buys for things that actually need group buys even when established for years and thousands of posts, I find it pretty darn strange this individual apparenty is so much more special and privileged than we are, or if he or she is not more special, why he or she is allowed it and we are not.

    Can I know when we peons may use the forum for group buys, or do we need to get our join date moved up to 2020 and our post counts down to 2 before we can use the forum to ask money be sent to us?

    I gave the okay to post the thread, and I also gave instructions that I would close the thread after the OP got enough interest to make the purchase.

    But since we are here, why not revisit the policy of not allowing group buys. I think it's been many years since it was last discussed and maybe it's time to revise the rule. What are the needs of the DIY community for group buys?
    No baiting/trolling. No insults. No politics. Read the Code of Conduct.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Thank you, furrypine!

    Here are my feelings on group buys. I was always disappointed we were not allowed but there's a wide array of reasons why moderators and administrators may have reasons for not allowing. Always a tradeoff on what to allow and what not, there is no one best answer! So never a complaint on consistent policy there.

    On needs, very commonly materials are available only in 1 kg size or with stunningly high repack fees if asking a special smaller order. Because of repack fees, for example if a person needs only an ounce (or say 30 g) the cost might be essentially the same as for far more or maybe even the full kilo in some instances.

    And there are many materials which it just doesn't make business sense for our wonderful retailers to sell, or at least not at this point in time.

    Many times those unable to swing such purchases simply never get the materials and would be greatly benefited if group buys were easily available when those who are bigger players than we are choose to purchase such items. And they would be benefited by their cost being reduced. Many times they absolutely don't need a full kilo or anything like.

    And many times, the bigger players would be able to get still more materials that would advance what they do, due to better affordability.

    Who should be allowed? Well I cannot say. As personal style, my tendency is towards let each judge for themselves... e.g. if I see a member with only 2 preceding posts who joined just months ago and decide to send him money, well why should someone be my parent and protect me from my foolishness? But on the other hand there is a lot to be said for having a forum that is a great community where no one gets burned and people are looking out for each other. So in actuality I offer exactly no opinion on how that should done.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Quote Originally Posted by furrypine View Post
    I gave the okay to post the thread, and I also gave instructions that I would close the thread after the OP got enough interest to make the purchase.

    But since we are here, why not revisit the policy of not allowing group buys. I think it's been many years since it was last discussed and maybe it's time to revise the rule. What are the needs of the DIY community for group buys?
    This is my personal take and this is from someone who has not been around long enough to know what happened last time around or why the ban on group buys was put in place.

    But there are tons of materials that sound interesting but have a high MOQ(Minimum Order Quantity), too high for a hobbyist perfumer like me that just makes scents for friends and family to justify buying. For example I remember Paul mentioning a vetiver absolute that had a 3 or 5 kg MOQ if I remember right and there is just no way I would be able to use that much any time in the near future and none of the regular sellers have it. I would be happy buying 100-200gms but no way would I buy 1kg+. There are also vendors that need special conditions met for you to be able to buy from them like you need to be a company to purchase from them and there is one if I remember right that needs you to be a chemical company to buy from them. So for me personally that would not be possible. So if someone did a group buy from those companies and offered a smaller size it would definitely be of a lot of interest.

    But with the ban on group buys in place those conversations get shot down by members who I trust enough to pre-pay even before the conversation starts unfortunately.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    FWIW, I would probably only participate in a DIY-organized chemical group buy if we arranged it through a known experienced supplier — like Christine at PSH — who has the clean lab space, the clean bottles, the experience with clean repackaging etc. Not a lack of trust in fellow DIYers’ honesty and intent, but a general doubt in fellow DIYers’ ability to repackage and remail with the Chain of Custody and cleanliness and package security I want in my materials. Organize here? Fine, but implement the plan through an experienced vendor who is discounting the surcharge for their experience relative to what it would have been had they taken the risk of carrying it in their inventory.

    As for big hardware like scales? No interest.

    One thing I might work just with DIYers on would be, say, bottles/sprayers that come in lots of 1000.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Thanks folks, the conversation coming out of this has been so worthwhile.

    Bill, I didn’t mean to offend. All I did was reach out to ask and was given the go ahead. The information about clearing with a mod was absolutely in the post from the beginning. It was not added in an edit.

    There were no conversations or questions from me about balances first because there were already plenty here and I didn’t see any need for a new one. I did my research, read through the old threads on the topic, read the Pell Wall article, etc. The i311 looked like a great choice, and I saw that some other members use older iBalance models… but I didn’t know about the stabilization “feature” —*thank you so much for pointing that out.

    Since you reported a good experience with your scale, I just went ahead and bought one. Cheapest I found on ebay was $52.99 at https://www.ebay.com/itm/Analytical-...y/373059435410

    Thanks for saving me nearly 300 bucks.

    Re group buys in general, I agree that being able to go in together on high MOQ or otherwise expensive materials would be great. I am trying to keep both my absolute and unit costs as low as possible, and it’s absolutely a pain sometimes to be choosing between a smaller quantity that’s more reasonable for my usage versus the significant drop in unit cost for buying higher quantity.

    Also agree on bottles and sprayers.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Apologies for my not seeing it in the original reading.

    Wow, $52.99!!! You did about $30 better than I did.

    It does appear visually to be the same. Hope it works well for you. I do expect it will if indeed the same and it most likely is.

    Btw, as the listing you found gives a specific "MPN," XZGC500401506675119, I searched for that and found someone selling the same for $239.70! https://spwindustrial.com/200x0-001g...tchen-digital/

    So there are definitely some ripoff-markup artists in this field. A balance being retailed for hundreds of dollars more than another doesn't necessarily mean it cost more from original manufacturer or is better.

    Welcome to the forum!

    By the way, at least for me, although I learn a really great amount from doing searches and reading older threads, it almost always is the case that where I'm lacking in knowledge of something, fresh discussion will turn up yet more, often quite important. Don't feel shy to ask on future things that need researching! There are many very helpful and knowledgeable people here.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Re: Bottles and Sprayers

    Theres no need to group buy things like this (unless you're trying to buy like 5,000 bottles), for you can go factory direct (China) on Alibaba.com. The trick is however finding a supplier who is willing to do a low MOQ (like 100pcs per order). But you can easily get professional quality bottles there for $0.50-$0.75 per bottle for a 100-MOQ. Shipping costs may vary however, but theres so many suppliers on there with so many bottle styles to choose from.

    I got 100 50ml "clear "Sauvage-like" bottles for about $150 total (including shipping), and they arrived on my doorstep in 3 weeks.

    50MLbottle.jpg
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    I never buy anything from china. anything. ever.
    because of the animal cruelty inherent in their culture.
    those details are extensive, but this is not the place.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Quote Originally Posted by -db- View Post
    I never buy anything from china. anything. ever.
    because of the animal cruelty inherent in their culture.
    those details are extensive, but this is not the place.
    But you do realize a lot of retailers/places here in USA that sell perfume bottles to consumers, are sourcing them from china, right? If you do find a factory that actually makes glass bottles here in the US, it gonna be quite expensive (assuming they will even sell to us consumers directly).

    Sad but true....somtimes when you just want the rock bottom cheapest prices for items, i have to put my ethics aside and just go with who has the item(s) i want and the price i can afford.
    ...bathing in perfumes...
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    I applaud anyone and everyone motivated to not buy from China and even more those that may be able succeed while still getting needed items. I hope that some day soon it will be more and more feasible to avoid entirely.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    rock bottom prices? shrug, yawn
    IMO there’s a shortage of quality vs quantity
    IMO there’s a shortage of responsibilities vs rights
    it’s one way; not everybody’s way, but it’s the way i take
    i buy vintage bottles and wash them in 99% isopropanol
    but would buy new from a different factory/geocultural situation

    fyi: i buy 99% isopro-OH for super-cleaning in 5-gal containers from U-line

  20. #20
    Basenotes Junkie Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Well, instead of taking this thread into a ethics/cultural differences path....Lets keep focused on providing the readers with "where to buy" options on bottles and sprayers. I gave one of mine, lets see what others have to offer for purchasable options to keep this thread moving along.
    ...bathing in perfumes...
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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    And for sprayers, can I get some like the Dior Homme bottles. I like the control on sprayer pressure.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    I have a practically brand new scale that I can sell to anyone interested:

    https://www.oldwillknottscales.com/m...lance-101.html

    Got it for $120 but will take $100 OBO.

    I need something with a bigger max weight.
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    I started another (non-commercial) thread on analytical balances in another post for those interested (nobody as of now).

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    I'm also interested in the future of group buys, especially for ingredients. I have never participated in any. What does it take to host one ? The capacity to deconsolidate (bottle in smaller quantities, different quantities too) ? The capacity to collect payments (deposits/balance) and possibly issue refunds ? Contact or existing account with a supplier ? The capacity to ship (domestically, internationally) ? What else ? What constitutes a good group buy experience ? Aren't existing retailers especially well suited for that ? Haven't I heard that Perfumer Supply House used to do that ? I agree with Bill that reputation on this forum is sufficient for someone to have an opinion on the reliability of the offer. Why couldn't there be a process like, maybe a special, separate "group buy" subforum where one could post interest either as a group buyer or as a group buy seller for a specific product and anyone would be able to manifest as a competing seller. Then, the buyers decide on which offer they prefer and they could proceed off-site or in DM for transactions. And the thread would remain open until everyone has received the goods from the seller of their choosing. And if a buyer or a seller is having problem with a transaction, they could comment about it in the thread and reputation of both sellers and buyers could be built upon that. Maybe I'm dreaming, but it seems to me that it could greatly improve accessibility to ingredients and serve the community tremendously. Also, I think it would be fair if sellers where required to pay some sort of fee to Basenotes to acquire the "seller" status as some moderation would be required to work well. Woudn't it ? I don't know. That's just my impression.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Auram International bases.
    Minimum order materials that are too expensive for DIYers or don't have business status to order in the first place.
    Currently wearing: Jazz by Yves Saint Laurent

  26. #26

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Quote Originally Posted by Leshutch View Post
    Auram International bases.
    Minimum order materials that are too expensive for DIYers or don't have business status to order in the first place.
    Yes Yes and Yes... I keep hearing about how wonderful they are... it becomes obsessing... 100% for Auram bases group buy!!!
    "A good perfume is only the effect of serendipity; this happy chance falls only to good perfumers" Unknown old perfumer - 1932

  27. #27

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Apologies for my not seeing it in the original reading.

    Wow, $52.99!!! You did about $30 better than I did.

    It does appear visually to be the same. Hope it works well for you. I do expect it will if indeed the same and it most likely is.

    Btw, as the listing you found gives a specific "MPN," XZGC500401506675119, I searched for that and found someone selling the same for $239.70! https://spwindustrial.com/200x0-001g...tchen-digital/

    So there are definitely some ripoff-markup artists in this field. A balance being retailed for hundreds of dollars more than another doesn't necessarily mean it cost more from original manufacturer or is better.

    Welcome to the forum!

    By the way, at least for me, although I learn a really great amount from doing searches and reading older threads, it almost always is the case that where I'm lacking in knowledge of something, fresh discussion will turn up yet more, often quite important. Don't feel shy to ask on future things that need researching! There are many very helpful and knowledgeable people here.
    I am wondering if we talk about the same stuff here, the one on https://ussolid.com/200-x-0-001g-ana...ion-scale.html is showing a brand name "US SOLID", the one on ebay seems to be a "no name".
    I don't know if they came from the same manufacturer, or is the ebay one a cheap copy?
    "A good perfume is only the effect of serendipity; this happy chance falls only to good perfumers" Unknown old perfumer - 1932

  28. #28

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    it appears to me, but I cannot prove, the manufacturer will provide badging for distributors or retailers if they want it.

    I can't prove it is the same balance. It very much appears to be. If not, another manufacturer is stealing the "trade dress.' While the Chicoms don't respect intellectual property of foreign countries, they do at least largely protect their own, so that seems unlikely but I can't say it's impossible.

    The no-name from eBay is they type I have, and I believe Paul also.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Quote Originally Posted by apolo085 View Post
    I keep hearing about how wonderful they are
    Mr. Arcadi is prone to fits (sometimes fantastical) of exaggeration in his writings and evaluations of his own products. He often misleads his readers by describing captives and their uses in the way he does.

    This is not to say the products he sells aren’t nice. But do not be fooled by his marketing, or their price.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    it appears to me, but I cannot prove, the manufacturer will provide badging for distributors or retailers if they want it.

    I can't prove it is the same balance. It very much appears to be. If not, another manufacturer is stealing the "trade dress.' While the Chicoms don't respect intellectual property of foreign countries, they do at least largely protect their own, so that seems unlikely but I can't say it's impossible.

    The no-name from eBay is they type I have, and I believe Paul also.
    I believe Paul has the US SOLID one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvxO...nnel=PaulKiler
    "A good perfume is only the effect of serendipity; this happy chance falls only to good perfumers" Unknown old perfumer - 1932




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