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  1. #31

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Quote Originally Posted by fragrantregard View Post
    Mr. Arcadi is prone to fits (sometimes fantastical) of exaggeration in his writings and evaluations of his own products. He often misleads his readers by describing captives and their uses in the way he does.

    This is not to say the products he sells aren’t nice. But do not be fooled by his marketing, or their price.
    Thanks, I cannot confirm it, but I've heard that there is not necessarely captive molecules in some of Auram bases even if he claimed so. Marketing strategie? Who knows..
    I was referring to experimented perfumer reviews, like Jamie (JFrater) who had very positive thoughs on Arcadi bases. That's enough for me to to pique my interest on sniffing some of them.
    "A good perfume is only the effect of serendipity; this happy chance falls only to good perfumers" Unknown old perfumer - 1932

  2. #32

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Quote Originally Posted by apolo085 View Post
    I believe Paul has the US SOLID one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvxO...nnel=PaulKiler
    That may be. My reason for saying it is that I made my purchase from clicking on the eBay link Paul provided, and selecting the 200 g version from same seller. I did not know his had the nameplate. Mine does not (from the same seller) and appears in every way part of the same line.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Whether or not his bases use captives is not of interest to me. The way he represents his products, and writes about captives, is. He wildly exaggerations, and sometimes simply lies. This should make people weary of dealing with such a person, and the claims he is making -- regardless of the quality of his products.

  4. #34

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    That may be. My reason for saying it is that I made my purchase from clicking on the eBay link Paul provided, and selecting the 200 g version from same seller. I did not know his had the nameplate. Mine does not (from the same seller) and appears in every way part of the same line.
    I think I'm going on the cheapest one on ebay, as plus, the one Christophe Laudamiel is using seems to have a different trade name also (Cannot read it, but seems to have more caracteres)...
    Scale.jpg
    "A good perfume is only the effect of serendipity; this happy chance falls only to good perfumers" Unknown old perfumer - 1932

  5. #35

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Quote Originally Posted by fragrantregard View Post
    Whether or not his bases use captives is not of interest to me. The way he represents his products, and writes about captives, is. He wildly exaggerations, and sometimes simply lies. This should make people weary of dealing with such a person, and the claims he is making -- regardless of the quality of his products.
    Out of curiousity, what is an example of an undoubted lie?

    The only specific claim I've seen here provided no foundation whatsoever -- the author simply asserted ABC to be lying about having ever smelled Edenolide.

    (On that theory, it was by pure luck that ABC's writings match up quite well with perceptions available to everyone after the product was released, but this problem with his theory, as well as utter lack of evidence for it, didn't bother the fellow going after me hammer and tongs, ever since on Ignore.)

    You may be right, I have no inside information, but in my case nothing I have purchased as a consequence of his expressed preferences among compounds (with of course highly effusive and florid writing) has had me disappointed in my purchase or finding his basic opinion wrong. Until that happens, his expressed impressions on materials I haven't smelled will continue to be weighed into the equation of whether to buy or not.

    In any case, on the practical matter of group buys, as I understand it group buys of Auram bases are not likely to be a real thing. Jamie did acquire some and is quite pleased, but the financial entry fee for it must have been far beyond the planned budget of most of us. Some time past, I believe the minimum order was $6000, and it's not at all clear that even with that money, one can just go do it, necessarily.


    So, not likely a real thing for this forum or nearly any personal-interest perfumer. Perhaps for some with potential for commercial very high end production, as for example Jamie said the jasmine base was considerably less expensive, and in his opinion as good, as natural. Still, not likely realistic for here.

  6. #36

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    I do not wish to write a polemic. He has said, in a live stream for example, that 'nobody uses peonile' because it smells like 'geranium soap;' touting how fabulous the captive captive petalia is. In reality, they smell rather similar. One might liken it to the difference between Hedione and Hedione HC. One is, of course, more powerful, more diffusive, and in the case of petalia, much more expensive.

    You mention Edenolide. We've discussed this before. I find it rather close to Appleide. I am very skeptical without a proper panel and triangular test that it makes such a substantial difference for diffusion. There are ways of measuring that, but he provides no data. And in fact, I have found his descriptions often very, very wrong -- precisely because they are so hyperbolic. Everything is one of the best chemicals he has ever smelled; "one of the most important," as he wrote of coranol, for example. This simply isn't true, at all. Unless we have different definitions of important. This is his brand, and I don't admire it. There are other examples. Some of his descriptions in his recent facebook posts about captives, for example, are almost funny because they are so exaggerated.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    OK, thank you. I don't use the word "lies" in that way but now understand what you mean. I'm assuming you have your best example, as you were asked specifically,.
    Myself I like a little bit of hard facts before using the word "lie," and for example don't consider hyperbole such as "Nobody uses" to be even intended as literal statements, but people vary on how soon they will use the word "lie."

    On a subpoint in the above, I think it's not uncommon that between one pair of different aromachemicals, one person may perceive little difference between them while the other perceives much; and quite possibly with the same persons but a different pair, the opposite direction occurs. Whether a panel would say much between Applelide and Edenolide I have no idea and don't care. It could be relevant to marketing decisions. It could also be confusing, because for example simply because no statistically significant difference is found would not prove a difference important to some consumers may not exist. You seem to take panels as a vital arbiter of truth; I don't. As a matter of fact I couldn't care in the least. But I am not involved in marketing fragrance.

    An analogy would be, I used to work as a recording engineer. Beyond doubt I could hear all kinds of things and needs to correct them that a panel would not. That doesn't mean an album would be as good, either to the opinion of better ears or to a general audience, if all those things were neglected. Somewhat different example though because between similarly trained and gifted engineers, discernment of what was better or worse and for what reason had high agreement, whereas in olfaction that will be less so, perhaps because of more complicated system and more variation.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    I was excited first about group buys, because I thought “wow I could split an order and try so much more!”- and then I realized how absurd a group buy would be on the level I buy, 2-15ml. All of our suppliers, have already made it a “group buy” at my level, and they do a fine job of it. So my two cents: there should be perimeters defining group buys. Newcomers already have difficulty w all the requirements of the craft, I could see potential issues arising around let’s say a diy beginners kit, especially w cross contamination. We tend to split hairs, and at that level, the possibilities are endless. So propose that group buys remain for materials that cannot be purchased at a small scale only.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    I don't take panels as the arbiter of truth. But I don't trust my own perceptions more than those of a consumer, or other professionals. And I don't know what to do with a claim that a given chemical is "[O]ne of the best in the world," unless it is qualified in some way. Without evidence, it is just an exaggerated opinion -- no better, perhaps worse -- than my own, much more modest ones.

    Arcadi touts certain materials as 'fantastic,' 'one of the best,' etc etc; incidentally many are captives, and (so he claims) only appear in bases, which he sells. This is deceptive, and doesn't help the DIY learner, at all. Really he is just espousing opinion. And fine, that's his prerogative. But I see that as damaging to the DIY leaner who comes away with a false impression of perfumery.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    I am going to have to bow out of this now as you are now doing what you accuse him of.

    Arcadi touts certain materials as 'fantastic,' 'one of the best,' etc etc; incidentally they all are captives
    Not true, many are not.

    and (so he claims) only appear in bases which he sells.
    Also not true. He writes with extreme enthusiasm about many materials which are not at all unique to his bases.

    Something emotional and non-fact-based, certainly not any facts shared above after my asking for them, is going on here and I would rather depart that.

    No personal hard feelings in the slightest, it is simply that on this particular thread I'm not going to continue when it's devolved to very non-factual statements, especially when so ironic. My gosh, especially when calling someone a liar, one ought to take care to not make false statements oneself about him, particularly when provably untrue within about 30 seconds and already well known by many to not be true. He has written effusively about so many materials that are not captive or unique to him. An absurd charge. Something else is going on, not within my purview.

  11. #41

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    I edited my post to say "many are" rather than "all."

    Contrary to what you have written, my "very non-factual statements" are not "so ironic," but rather accurate. I don't know what facts you asked for that I didn't provide. I gave you several examples, apparently you are unswayed. This is fine. You apparently don't think knowingly misrepresenting the truth is lying.

    It doesn't detract from the fact that he writes only using tons of superlatives, and, when examined, his statements rarely hold up to scrutiny.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    As shown by the quotes your claims were nothing like accurate, and it was not typos that you had twice doing it. Those are not unsubstantive edits. They completely change the character and significance. What you wrote was very non-factual, just as I said.

    You did not show me one "lie" anywhere.'

    Other than we all knew already he uses a lot of superlatives -- never in doubt, anyone could spot that in 2 seconds -- all you have done is assert. I don't know why, obviously you have a big bug on it, that's your prerogative. I did wish to know if you could provide factual backup and you did not.

    Out.

  13. #43

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Dear Bill, my claims are perfectly accurate. And I do not understand your preference for personal insults over actually engaging with with the claims I made (about Petalia) -- that any professional would know, incidentally. Why would he say something so obviously false? Find a givaudan perfumer and ask them about the volume, if you remain unswayed.

    Find an IFF perfumer and ask them about his claims about their captives on his facebook page. Ask the sales team if he actually has access to the materials he says he does. Ask the Symrise individuals he wrote an email to begging for captives to review for his book.

    His persona in the online perfumery community is a misrepresentation of the role he plays in the industry. And that's fine. I am sure we all do that to an extent. My argument has always been that believing in these misrepresentations is bad for the DIY learner.

  14. #44

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    And I do not understand your preference for personal insults
    I was clear enough I did not wish to continue. Yet you address me by name.

    I did not insult you. Please stop. The only person who insulted anyone was you, with a charge of lying that you failed to back up when asked to do so with clear evidence, and instead you wrote some false charges which you now edited. That is not me insulting you, it's a statement of fact.

    I did address the part of your statement I had information on and could readily reply to: The statement "Nobody uses" is obvious and plain hyperbole to communicate some point about trends in usage. I asked for undoubted lying, not hyperbole that could be objected to on a literal level. Don't say I didn't address it, I did.

    As for saying you apparently have a bug about him, that may not be factual, but it's not an insult and it's the only explanation I can find for your writing such things when asked a simple and plain question, if you could provide an undoubted lie.

    I have always enjoyed you as a person and value you knowledge but if you must devolve to claiming I have a "preference for personal insults": then you are another that I will not wish to read further.

    You'd have done better if you had started with an argument such as the above instead of the false statements you did make before. You may be right on these. But that is not how you had posted previously.

    As for your remainder, I'm not going to spend much time on it but I find it pretty absurd. I have never known a large company where one could "ask the sales team" and find out accurately whether people in R&D might have provided something to someone or not and thus one could argue nonsense such as he never smelled Edenolide, or the like. Just wild.

    Whether your contacts know what they are talking about or not I have no idea. (I have no information if you circulate among a very high level in the fine fragrance industry or not so much, and don't need to know.) I was asking for undoubted, not third-hand which the above is, at best, from the time it got from wherever then to you then to me.

    It's unfortunate if you must smear me simply because I've benefited from ABC's writings on my materials choices and have said so while you have a bug about him based on language being too effusive for you or other reason.

    All because someone wanted his bases and you had to jump in and call him a liar. Absolutely nothing to do with whether the bases are worth buying or not for an individual. We buy things for their usefulness. I don't necessarily have the best opinion of every company head out there but if the company has a product that suits my needs, I buy, and most certainly if it suits someone else's needs, I wouldn't be jumping in with character attack rather than merits of product. That's me, it doesn't have to be everybody. Anyway this all seems VERY unnecessary, same as previously.

    I should have known better than to ask if you could provide an undoubted example. But I didn't know you would do this and even go to smearing me.

    Please let me know if you wish to retract your false charge of me. Other than that, this subtopic is done. I don't read people who attack my character with such as saying I have a "preference for personal insults" to substantive reply, let alone with a "Dear" to start it and then make said smear on my alleged preferred behavior.

  15. #45

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Dear Bill, Dear Fragrantregard,
    Thank you for your contributions, both of your points of view regarding Arcadi's work are reliables.
    May be if the DIY community had plain access to Arcadi bases then the legend may continue or fail miserably.
    Please keep up your good work and precious advices for the DIY community with the calm and wisdom you've used to.
    "A good perfume is only the effect of serendipity; this happy chance falls only to good perfumers" Unknown old perfumer - 1932

  16. #46

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Thank you Apolo!

    I don't have those bases and am not greatly concerned about it. I have simply benefited from some materials descriptions, of available materials, and combinations mentioned, and am always disconcerted by attacks without good evidence. Everything which some find very good or useful, it would be great if we had access to, but much never will be. I definitely agree that if they were available then most likely there would be agreement that attacks are foolish and useless, or dead on the money, one or the other. Let the products prove themselves. But they cannot when we do not have them.

  17. #47

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    You are welcome Bill.
    unfortunately it seems so... Even Christine the queen of AC's cannot offer these...
    "A good perfume is only the effect of serendipity; this happy chance falls only to good perfumers" Unknown old perfumer - 1932

  18. #48

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Bill,

    It is not for you to decide that “this subtopic is done,” because you were “clear enough [you] did not wish to continue.” I have every right to make my case, which I will continue to do, despite your petty threat to make me “another that [you] not wish to read further.” You are master of your own time; you may disregard everything I say, and post; you may refuse to respond. You may not tell me I cannot.

    As for the “accusations,” I made of you. Here are the facts. You have said my “claims were nothing like accurate” and that “ obviously [I] have a big bug on it,” both of which are patently false. You said I ‘ironically’ have made false statements about him — again, an untruth. These are insulting to me, yes, because I never wish to misinform other people. And you imply I am doing just that because “something else” (otherwise unspecified) “is going on.”

    I am happy to expound on why I commented on the post about his bases (which, incidentally we agree on: his personal marketing strategies have nothing to do with their quality — which is made clear in my first response). There is constantly an evocation on this forum, which I’m sure you’ve observed, that captives are kept away from the DIY community (sometimes for unspecified reasons, sometimes to keep the DIY community down, etc). That their use in perfumes takes creations to next level. Users opine their lack of access, etc etc. These are all ludicrous statements, and, in my eyes, a disservice to the new DIY learner who is disappointed with her or her progress when studying. I see Arcadi’s writings and posts (unintentionally, perhaps) feeding this narrative. I do not admire this. And I think that is unhelpful for the DIY learner.

    I provided you with cases where he knowingly “exaggerates” the facts. This to me is not truthful. We don’t have to quibble about the word “lie,” as I didn’t even call him “a liar,” contrary to what you write. I said he sometimes “simply lies” about the materials he is using. This can’t be refuted. I didn’t cast any aspersions against his character. Again, I urged readers not to buy into how he markets his products. And also to ignore how to sometimes makes things up about the captives which he reviews.

  19. #49

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Quote Originally Posted by apolo085 View Post
    Dear Bill, Dear Fragrantregard,
    Thank you for your contributions, both of your points of view regarding Arcadi's work are reliables.
    May be if the DIY community had plain access to Arcadi bases then the legend may continue or fail miserably.
    Please keep up your good work and precious advices for the DIY community with the calm and wisdom you've used to.
    I was going to ask to kindly move their pissing match to another spot but this response is probably better!

  20. #50

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    FR, It is for me to decide when I am done with a subtopic, and now, done with a person.

    And when done with stating what needs to be said, as I have done so and don't need to repeat. Each can read what you write above and compare it to what preceded, as well as to itself. Such astounding "content":

    I didn’t even call him “a liar,” contrary to what you write. I said he sometimes “simply lies”
    I don't deal with people who try to dispute the truth of what I say with statements like that. Beyond absurd.

    You did not withdraw your character attack of me. Your choice, and my choice follows. Not a loss to anyone I am sure, and mentioned only in case any wonder why I shall not at any time ever respond to you again. i will not be seeing it, unless it is in quotes, which cannot be avoided.

    You have really surprised me with your demonstration of today. Well, one finds out about people with time and interaction, and I have learned now about you. For the better I suppose in the long run, though a disappointment.

  21. #51

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    FR, It is for me to decide when I am done with a subtopic, and now, done with a person.

    And when done with stating what needs to be said, as I have done so and don't need to repeat. Each can read what you write above and compare it to what preceded, as well as to itself. Such astounding "content":



    I don't deal with people who try to dispute the truth of what I say with statements like that. Beyond absurd.

    You did not withdraw your character attack of me. Your choice, and my choice follows. Not a loss to anyone I am sure, and mentioned only in case any wonder why I shall not at any time ever respond to you again. i will not be seeing it, unless it is in quotes, which cannot be avoided.

    You have really surprised me with your demonstration of today. Well, one finds out about people with time and interaction, and I have learned now about you. For the better I suppose in the long run, though a disappointment.
    Bill everything turns into personal attacks with you. This is perfume it's not that serious. Let it go man, be the bigger man. Let's have peace Bill if you're not pleased with what's going on in this thread then just don't tune in. Two moderators have already posted here so nothing is astray yet.

  22. #52

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post

    You have really surprised me with your demonstration of today. Well, one finds out about people with time and interaction, and I have learned now about you. For the better I suppose in the long run, though a disappointment.
    Wow, Bill - you've really outdone yourself! I don't know if you'll see this - you put me on your ignore list at the drop of a hat a few months when I dared to challenge your gospel that ABC is the best perfumer ever to have lived who can say no wrong. You made the assumption that I'm just a hobbyist, rather than working in the industry, and hence assumed I couldn't have possibly smelled Edenolide before you. Oops.

    What saddens me is that you are obviously very emotionally invested in ABC's writings as if they are some sort of religious text. No amount of evidence of fraud, or ridiculous hyperbolic claims, or dodgy pictures with pubescent girls are apparently sufficient to interrupt your rapture with this man. This has a knock-on effect when you continually speak his praises: people on this forum get the idea that because you - a senior member - endorse him, that that must mean he is worthy of such attention. In reality, he's either unheard of or laughed at by almost everyone in industry.

  23. #53

    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    Bill everything turns into personal attacks with you. This is perfume it's not that serious. Let it go man, be the bigger man. Let's have peace Bill if you're not pleased with what's going on in this thread then just don't tune in. Two moderators have already posted here so nothing is astray yet.
    What do you mean? I just did let it go.

    And what's this?

    "Everything turns into personal attacks with you?"

    I think something over 2500 posts plus will show that is not true. All kinds of things do not.

    But when people make statements about me personally of a negatively characterizing nature, yes that it's exactly what it is and I have no reason to pretend it's not. Maybe unlike some, I'll call it for what it is when it happens.

    it's the refuge of people whose attempts at facts don't work, or who even themselves replied with clear-as-day, right-there falsehoods or unsupported statements (depending on the case) which they neither could show true nor would take back, and instead dive to ad hominem.

    I don't deal with people like that, once identified, and frankly don't see a reason for anyone objecting to that policy, not that you said you did.

    I will not be responding to this thread further as there is no point. Clearly some have agendas that have nothing to do with the thread topic or the quite sincere request or comment on the bases in question, end of story, as well as rather obviously personal bones to pick at quite hard, replete with false statements. Not a thing I wish to participate in.

  24. #54
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    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    This is the best price I could find on Ebay for the scale that I use:
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/500g-0-001g...0AAOSwr7Nc2nEt
    Paul Kiler
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    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  25. #55
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    Default Re: Group buy on milligram scales

    This thread has gone slightly awry so I am closing it. Thank you all for answering my questions about group buys, I can see how it would benefit the community if we could use the site to initiate it. There might be issues of allowing it that I'm not familiar with, perhaps about the legality of running sales through Basenotes, that I will have to ask Grant about. When I know more I will make a thread in the DIY forum and keep you informed.
    No baiting/trolling. No insults. No politics. Read the Code of Conduct.




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