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  1. #31

    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    Assuming we all realize this whole idea only applies to rare or new or odd that normal retailers don’t bother with....
    in the vein of new...
    because I’m a musk and sandalwood junkie...
    if Isobionics’ bacterial fermentation-derived Santalol turns out to be the shizz...
    I would happily host a kg split.

    Very unknown, don’t even have a sample yet, but I dig their sustainable feedstock and method.
    (But I bet big $ a known North American retailer will have already captured this market by then for many of us; note: based in The Netherlands so you Euros will have something that side.)




    I still think this idea is only and wholly outside the realm of established sources and retailer arrangements (Firm, IFF, etc.)
    Rare or new or odd.
    Isobionics Santalol = new.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    I have a contact at Isobionics and can find out for you.

    Have you tried the Natural Santalol ex santalum album I offer? I have a whole lot of it now.
    Christine Daley
    Perfumer Supply House - Fragrance Ingredient Boutique
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  3. #33

    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    Hi Christine! That would be so excellent if we could steer these your way. I do believe that would be the best scenario for all, in those cases where it will work out for you.

    As generally speaking the strategy, so to speak, had been for the group buy to cover entire cost of purchase in any case, it seems like it could work out most times.

    Your natural santalol is fantastic. I think it's a very doable price for personal perfuming but for anything made in quantity it probably is hard to cost-justify. If the Isobionics smells as good and is much lower cost, it could be a smash hit I think.

    My belief is it's impossible to make a really good sandalwood without santalol. A moderate cost santalol with a great-smelling isomer ratio would be a game-changer.

    Firmenich's new santalol product -- Dreamwood Base -- may not suit the needs of us here as well as the Isobionics, as they have chosen to add other things rather than provide just the santalol. I wouldn't doubt they've made additions that large scale commercial buyers will find useful but the additions may not in all cases be what we want. (Time will tell.)

  4. #34

    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    If I may quote myself...

    Quote Originally Posted by -db- View Post
    Assuming we all realize this whole idea only applies to rare or new or odd that normal retailers don’t bother with...
    Quote Originally Posted by -db- View Post
    FWIW, I would probably only participate in a DIY-organized chemical group buy if we arranged it through a known experienced supplier — like Christine at PSH — who has the clean lab space, the clean bottles, the experience with clean repackaging etc. Not a lack of trust in fellow DIYers’ honesty and intent, but a general doubt in fellow DIYers’ ability to repackage and remail with the Chain of Custody and cleanliness and package security I want in my materials. Organize here? Fine, but implement the plan through an experienced vendor who is discounting the surcharge for their experience relative to what it would have been had they taken the risk of carrying it in their inventory.

  5. #35

    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    So I just got off the phone with Christine and we both think there is something to be done to facilitate or enable group buys or pre-sales for hard-to-find perfumery ingredients (for retail or sample quantities only, because if you require larger quantities, she can probably already accommodate you and there is no need for a group buy in that case). On my end, it would be a website that allows for maintaining a list of the requested ingredients along the lines of what I proposed earlier on this thread. And then, Christine could somehow post a URL to a pre-sale/group buy offer on her store for a listed ingredient request. Maybe, eventually people could get notified of the offers coming in via email. There are a lot of features that could be added in time to enhance the experience for both customers and merchants and both Christine and I are expecting or at least hoping it will lead to the home perfume makers being served better in the long run. For now, I just want to do the minimum necessary to see if this business model has a future. I will pre-populate the list with ingredients that are mentioned here, so continue to write down your request in this thread to help me get started. I will announce an ingredient request form soon here (give me a week or two) and we can take it from there. You can also post ideas too and I will consider them for implementation.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    PK's list:

    1. Cerezoate /Cherry Pentanoate ETHYL-2-METHYL-3-PENTENOATE CAS# 1617-23-8 Possible sources: Bedoukian and Sigma

    2. LIMEDIENE CAS 30640-46-1 - Trouble is that Bedoukian only wants to sell pure material, (undiluted), but the shelf life is short, AND it is so powerful that none of us could possibly use enough at full strength, before it's shelf life expired, leaving the unknown time period that it could go off. And I cannot find any vendors to sell me a diluted kg.

    3. Isobutyl Methyl Ketone CAS# 108-10-1

    I would take large portions of these... bringing down the number of people needed to join in on the buy of these materials.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    Hi again Paul,

    First of all, thanks for participating in this experiment and bringing up the subject of dilution and shelf life. It's something to keep in mind for sure.

    Also, if, by any chance, people requested your own "captive" molecules that you manufacture yourself (that you have mentioned occasionally here), would you be willing to provide for a group buy ?

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    Quote Originally Posted by contrebande View Post
    Hi again Paul,

    First of all, thanks for participating in this experiment and bringing up the subject of dilution and shelf life. It's something to keep in mind for sure.

    Also, if, by any chance, people requested your own "captive" molecules that you manufacture yourself (that you have mentioned occasionally here), would you be willing to provide for a group buy ?
    For the Schiff bases...
    First, I'm not willing to give out my entire list of what I have made, for people to pick from.

    next, Methyl Anthranilate Schiff bases are the most economical, and require the least amount of TLC babysitting, to bring the reaction to completion. These MA Schiff bases are probably the only bases I would consider making in larger qty for public sale. Lead time for manufacture should be 2-4 weeks.

    Lastly, I don't often make a schiff base if it can already be purchased from Vigon, I recommend the same, if it can be bought elsewhere, don't ask me to make it...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    OK
    This differs from me shooting an email to Christine saying. “Hey C, Whazzyup? Can you get X?” in what way?
    Seems kinda like this business model proposal is based on
    lack of familiarity with that which already exists.
    ?

  10. #40

    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    PK's list:

    1. Cerezoate /Cherry Pentanoate ETHYL-2-METHYL-3-PENTENOATE CAS# 1617-23-8 Possible sources: Bedoukian and Sigma

    2. LIMEDIENE CAS 30640-46-1 - Trouble is that Bedoukian only wants to sell pure material, (undiluted), but the shelf life is short, AND it is so powerful that none of us could possibly use enough at full strength, before it's shelf life expired, leaving the unknown time period that it could go off. And I cannot find any vendors to sell me a diluted kg.

    3. Isobutyl Methyl Ketone CAS# 108-10-1

    I would take large portions of these... bringing down the number of people needed to join in on the buy of these materials.
    I’ve never smelled the last material on your list, but the first one I find rather boring. Not much different than manzanate or any of the other butryates (like ethyl-2-methyl, or isopropyl-2 methyl). It is only mildly longer lasting.

    Limediene is fantastically powerful, superbly juicy and metallic fresh. I think this material is gold. It lasts really only minutes on a blotter, however. Extremely volatile. Shipping this I imagine would certainly be considered hazardous; difficult to split up.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    Quote Originally Posted by fragrantregard View Post
    Limediene is fantastically powerful, superbly juicy and metallic fresh. I think this material is gold. It lasts really only minutes on a blotter, however. Extremely volatile. Shipping this I imagine would certainly be considered hazardous; difficult to split up.
    Hmmm, about the Cherry Pentanoate... Thanks.

    Yes, the Limediene - indeed why I am seeking to buy a dilution, rather than neat...

    We'll see what can be found... That I cannot.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    We'll see what can be found... That I cannot.
    Challenge accepted. I expected you to "stress test" the system.

    I just want to mention, however that my understanding, based on my conversation with Christine, is that for a fragrance ingredient to be "eligible" for a group buy :

    1) it has to be listed on TGSC. Because if it is not, then it means that no manufacturer/supplier deemed it worthy of paying/sponsoring TGSC for it to be listed there. Not being on TGSC === not being on the market at all.

    2) if it has a CAS number listed on the TGSC profile, it must not be found in either of these US retailers' online shop : Perfumer's Apprentice, Perfumer Supply House and Creating Perfume. I know that some products that are organoleptically different sometimes share a CAS number and some of these products are sometimes requested for group buys regardless. But I have to draw the line somewhere to start and maybe I will add the possibility later to bypass this restriction and allow users to request those ingredients anyway. I might also add other trusted retailers to the exclusion list in the future as well, such as Pell Wall, for instance.

    All of the ingredients you requested here qualify at least to rule 1, BTW, I'm just saying this to clarify the scope further.

    Other than that, it's up to the sellers (only Christine for now) to make offers for the ingredients they are willing to provide.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    Well, nonetheless, I know molecules there on TGSC pages that cannot be bought. Ive been trying to get Isoeugenol ethyl acetal made for forever.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    I fell compelled to resolve this Limediene issue considering I gave it its name (when I was the QC manager at Bedoukian).
    Also, 6 months shelf life isn't that short, but perhaps i can offer a dilution.
    Christine Daley
    Perfumer Supply House - Fragrance Ingredient Boutique
    Find me on Facebook

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  15. #45
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    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    Quote Originally Posted by -db- View Post
    OK
    This differs from me shooting an email to Christine saying. “Hey C, Whazzyup? Can you get X?” in what way?
    Seems kinda like this business model proposal is based on
    lack of familiarity with that which already exists.
    ?
    This is different in that it's a group buy, and the purchase of a larger quantity of a newly stocked product is paid-for up front by multiple parties, which demonstrates demand and lowers the risk for Christine and means more risky products or those that might not usually sell very well can come into the inventory.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jameshillier View Post
    and means more risky products or those that might not usually sell very well can come into the inventory.
    Come into the inventory? How? Leftovers from first kilogram? That’s not gonna inspire risk taking. One kg sold and an experienced retailer is suddenly gonna decide to take on the risk of buying more themselves? Improbable.

    Some simple, complete one-offs would be a good hope for and measure of success.

  17. #47
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    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    The retailer could buy more than one kilogram, maybe two? Perhaps that gives better economy of scale with the wholesaler? Then the remaining can be put into inventory.

    I think more than 1kg would sell out quickly when it is up for grabs in a "pre order" situation. Plus, when many people are using an ingredient, inevitably they will run out and need more later.

  18. #48
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    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jameshillier View Post
    The retailer could buy more than one kilogram, maybe two? Perhaps that gives better economy of scale with the wholesaler?
    Prices from wholesaler go down at 5kg, 10kg, 25kg.
    2kg is the same price as 1kg.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  19. #49

    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    Vigon used to have (from my quick analysis of sorts) a very simple pricing formula.

    There was the bulk per kilo price, which was just about the 25 kg price, minus $100, divided by 25.

    Then there was the (hidden) repack fee, which was $100.

    Your cost, no matter how many kilos you bought, was the per kilo price, times kilos, plus the repack fee of $100.

    Presently there seems no exact formula and the repack seems more like $120 or so.

    Anyway what Paul says is exactly right. For less expensive materials, it can be almost pointless to buy just 1 kg if you have any potential use for more, as the price will be practically the same.

    Some materials are as low as for example $6/kg, but that first kilo is going to cost you $126 or so.

  20. #50

    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    So....
    why don’t you all test the waters by debating a most-likely successful test chemical (new, rare, odd, or otherwise special, yet commercially unavailable)...
    and — once you have your candidate material/chemical which seemingly has best chance of success in a test of this — ...
    maybe get a rough idea of likely group-buy retail rates (descending per usual by mass)...
    and let’s see who’s really lurking here by...
    starting a dedicated thread and see who commits.

    I’m curious...
    this might be a raging success...
    I dunno.

    It feels kinda unlikely to me...
    but I’m wrong often...
    so...
    why not debate a chemical and then run a dedicated-thread test???

  21. #51

    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    xyz
    Last edited by -db-; 22nd September 2020 at 03:12 AM.

  22. #52
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    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    Heads up! I should have a sample of Isobionics santalol by the end of the week. I still don't have pricing but will give you all an idea when I do. Note that this santalol is synthetic but I assume most know that. If you'd like the SDS please send me an email to christine@perfumersupplyhouse.com.
    Cheers!
    Christine Daley
    Perfumer Supply House - Fragrance Ingredient Boutique
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  23. #53

    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    Hi guys !

    I now have something you can try out here : https://contrebande.co/en/ingredients/group-buys/

    It has not been integrated in the rest of the site. As it is something I want to include in a upcoming independent, decentralized project I call "Parfumerie Sociale". But for now I am fortunate enough to have all the infrastructure in place to host it so I will use that.

    It's like a cart or a wishlist for the ingredients that you cannot find at any "reference" north-american retailer at the moment.

    It's very beta and probably broken. But I would like to know what you guys think, if it is something you think you would want to use as-is or with some improvements (let me know which) .I feel I need to be very clear to those who think it it should not exist, or that I should not be the one doing it: I will give zero (0) attention to your opinion on the matter.

    The next step for me is to eat my own dog food and use it to create and publish a cart/wishlist of my own ingredients I cannot find currently at sample quantity (5-30g/ml) at my "reference" retailers. I will use the tool to publish my list here for all to see and discuss and maybe find out if others are also looking for the same hard-to-find ingredients. Then, if in the coming weeks I see that it is being ignored by the Basenotes DIY community, I will not promote if further here.

    Thanks guys. Hope some of you like it and might even let me know how to improve it.

  24. #54
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    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    Quote Originally Posted by contrebande View Post
    Hi guys !

    I now have something you can try out here : https://contrebande.co/en/ingredients/group-buys/

    It has not been integrated in the rest of the site. As it is something I want to include in a upcoming independent, decentralized project I call "Parfumerie Sociale". But for now I am fortunate enough to have all the infrastructure in place to host it so I will use that.

    It's like a cart or a wishlist for the ingredients that you cannot find at any "reference" north-american retailer at the moment.

    It's very beta and probably broken. But I would like to know what you guys think, if it is something you think you would want to use as-is or with some improvements (let me know which) .I feel I need to be very clear to those who think it it should not exist, or that I should not be the one doing it: I will give zero (0) attention to your opinion on the matter.

    The next step for me is to eat my own dog food and use it to create and publish a cart/wishlist of my own ingredients I cannot find currently at sample quantity (5-30g/ml) at my "reference" retailers. I will use the tool to publish my list here for all to see and discuss and maybe find out if others are also looking for the same hard-to-find ingredients. Then, if in the coming weeks I see that it is being ignored by the Basenotes DIY community, I will not promote if further here.

    Thanks guys. Hope some of you like it and might even let me know how to improve it.
    DMS and Aldehyde C-7 will be in my Topnotes class kit.
    How much Methyl Eugenol do you need?
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  25. #55

    Default Re: Rebirth of Group Buys on Basenotes DIY ?

    Hi Paul,

    This is not my personal list. It is the whole TGSC database with the ingredients available at my "reference retailers" (PSH, PA and CP) removed, matched with CAS#. There are about 4,000 ingredients in that list. My list has around 150 ingredients. Are you going to be selling individual ingredients on your website ? If so, would you like to be included in my reference retailers ? I would need to take the CAS# on your website and remove them from the list. Individual ingredients only, not kits. We can talk it over on the phone if you want.
    Last edited by contrebande; 12th October 2020 at 01:51 AM. Reason: readability




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