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Thread: covid19 anosmia

  1. #1

    Default covid19 anosmia

    There have been a lot of reports in the media about covid19 causing anosmia and other disturbances to the sense of smell - and the worrying thing is that sometimes they seem to last long after the illness itself has cleared up.

    I've been wondering if perfumery could assist in these cases - maybe the design of some kind of olfactory re-education programme? First thought was maybe something which would start with simple, small molecules, and gradually work up to the bigger molecules like musks, some of which are hard to detect even with "normal" olfactory capabilities.

    Has anyone any thoughts on this?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    It’s an interesting idea, I haven’t seen this discussed anywhere; however, it could follow in the footsteps of a project developed by Ruth Sutcliffe, a perfume designer, that uses a kit of simple, familiar scents and flash cards therapeutically/educationally with people with Alzheimers or autism. More here:

    https://thescentgurugroup.com/produc...nnect-tool-kit

    The Monell Research Center here in Philadelphia has an informative page on COVID-19 anosmia:

    https://monell.org/covid-19-resources/
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  3. #3

    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    This is a very interesting topic. I am the perfumer for Rook Perfumes but I also work as am emergency doctor. Thankfully most patients appear to get their senses back but I have seen a few cases of "long covid" where they have remained diminished or absent for months. It would be interesting to try different essential oils and aroma chemicals and see if those with covid related anosmia can sense any of them. Interestingly enifuh this could also benefit parkinsons patients who also lose their sense of smell.
    Nadeem x

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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Thankfully during this difficult time, my sense of smell has not waned.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    In the last few months there have also been people reporting losing their sense of smell after being COVID tested due to having the long swab coming into contact with their olfactory epithelium (Cribriform plate). Something to note before having a giant cotton bud almost touch your brain.

    Maybe a spit test would suffice and save many people from losing their sense of smell?
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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    The early symptoms of COVID19 infection include the loss of taste and smell, which I understood cleared up once the infection has taken hold. Besides normal impact of continued congestion on taste and smell while fighting it off, I didn't know it had a long term impact once a patient had "gotten over it". That's really unfortunate.

  7. #7

    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    I know someone who caught Covid back in the spring and still can't smell or taste anything. Worrying.

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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    It took me awhile to reconstruct my recollections of this, but I remembered a beauty and perfume blogger who developed anosmia due to a severe sinus infection and wrote powerfully about it. In Louise Woollam’s case, it wasn’t just that she lost the ability to smell, but ordinary smells turned into awful stenches, which sounds absolutely horrible.

    She worked with Sarah McCartney to develop a perfume she could enjoy, which became Paradox.

    https://www.4160tuesdays.com/4160tue...adox-30ml.html

    Some of the proceeds from the sale of Paradox are donated to the Fifth Sense, a nonprofit anosmia foundation. More here:

    https://www.fifthsense.org.uk/covid-...s-latest-news/

    Perhaps Sarah could work on something to help those with anosmia due to COVID-19?
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  9. #9

    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    I've had covid-19.

    The first symptoms were much like the cold or flu, a sore throat and muscle aches. As the coronavirus is in the news every day, all day, I thought I would get a test, and it was positive.

    The overall symptoms were like a medium flu, I did feel quite bad in the middle of it, but not the 'oh god I'm going to die I can't even crawl out of bed' variety. I did not lose my sense of smell until some days later.

    I didn't notice my sense of smell had suddenly disappeared until I smelled some fragrance, or rather, didn't smell it. A couple of minutes to test, and I found I couldn't even smell bleach. One of the reasons I dislike fragrantica (not the only one) is that the people there can be vicious monsters. People wiith no medical training that think they know everything because they watch the news telling me my sense of smell wouldn't return for a VERY VERY long time and how bad things were going to be for me.

    It wasn't true. After two months since the positive test result I would say my health and sense of smell are the same as before the virus. If I wasn't highly sceptical of the 'news' pumped out by the media before, I am now. All I hear about are people dying, or on ventilators, or their near death or 'long covid' experiences. How about a little perspective, a little more comment regarding the vast majority of people, who either have no symptoms, or mild symptoms, and no long term negative effects?

    From my understanding of covid-19, it affects the cells that offer metabolic and structural support to the neurons that provide our olfactory sense. The neurons themselves are unaffected. Depending on the amount of damage to the support cells, it can take from one to three months for them to regenerate.I'd say I had a couple of weeks of loss of smell, but at it's worst (in the beginning) it was a total loss.

  10. #10

    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurahl View Post
    If I wasn't highly sceptical of the 'news' pumped out by the media before, I am now. All I hear about are people dying, or on ventilators, or their near death or 'long covid' experiences. How about a little perspective, a little more comment regarding the vast majority of people, who either have no symptoms, or mild symptoms, and no long term negative effects?
    I don't understand why you find the 'news' confusing. The number of people testing positive and the number of people dying or in hospital is widely reported.
    If you're not getting that information you should find other news outlets, or at least pay more attention and apply some analysis.

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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Quote Originally Posted by tony_i View Post
    I don't understand why you find the 'news' confusing. The number of people testing positive and the number of people dying or in hospital is widely reported.
    If you're not getting that information you should find other news outlets, or at least pay more attention and apply some analysis.
    yet completely over disagnosed IMHO. The real numbers are much lower

  12. #12

    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Quote Originally Posted by ionone View Post
    yet completely over disagnosed IMHO. The real numbers are much lower
    Thanks, but I'm not interested in your uneducated opinion, honest or otherwise.

    Given that most cases are asymptomatic and people without symptoms are unlikely to pursue a test, it's more than likely that it's under-diagnosed anyway.

    In the end, dead bodies and an increased mortality rate don't lie.

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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    I’ve had the virus supposedly (got tested when my wife got it), and even though it was a positive test, I never lost my sense of smell at all. Actually for me, just felt like I still had some mild outdoor allergy type symptoms if anything.

  14. #14

    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Luckily, while never having so far gotten medically tested with nearly 100% scientific accuracy, at least can say that since the very beginning of the pandemic the intensity as well accuracy of olfactory perceptions regarding any fragrances did not decrease so far
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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Quote Originally Posted by tony_i View Post
    Thanks, but I'm not interested in your uneducated opinion, honest or otherwise.

    Given that most cases are asymptomatic and people without symptoms are unlikely to pursue a test, it's more than likely that it's under-diagnosed anyway.

    In the end, dead bodies and an increased mortality rate don't lie.
    the normal "flu" numbers are next to nothing now,why is that ? because all the "flu" deaths are counted as covid

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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    On Thursday I saw two people telling they were anosmic and without taste and probably both were with COVID.
    I doubt that strategy the OP would work. The problem is not with size of molecules, but a problem with the neurons of the cribriform plate. It seems there's a swelling around them, that makes harder for the molecules to stimulate the olfactory receptors.
    Last edited by Beck; 31st October 2020 at 05:30 PM.
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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Quote Originally Posted by ionone View Post
    the normal "flu" numbers are next to nothing now,why is that ? because all the "flu" deaths are counted as covid
    Flu numbers are down because social isolating, social distancing, and masks work to prevent flu transmission, and these measures were all underway before flu season started. Neither flu nor COVID-19 contraction and fatality numbers are completely accurate, but it's extremely unlikely that a statistically significant number of flu deaths have been misattributed, since MDs and MEs can generally tell what kills a person—although, in some cases, a patient will have both, in which case it's a toss-up as to which is the cause of death.
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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Quote Originally Posted by PStoller View Post
    masks work to prevent flu transmission,.
    masks don't prevent anything : the pores in the mask fabric are 150 times bigger than the virus. So unless it's a N95 mask (which nobody wears, (except me),it's totally useless
    it would only prevents droplets to enter your mouth when someone is coughing strongly in front of you,which is highly unlikely
    if masks were effective, numbers would have dropped by now...yet they are exploding
    it's even counter productive, because people think they are protected by wearing a mask, so they take more risks, instead of taking less risks
    In France we even have to wear masks outside, which is totally retarded if you understand how virus transmission works
    it's like saying : "wear a masks to prevent AIDS contamination". this is the same retardation
    Jeff

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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Quote Originally Posted by ionone View Post
    masks don't prevent anything : the pores in the mask fabric are 150 times bigger than the virus. So unless it's a N95 mask (which nobody wears, (except me),it's totally useless
    it would only prevents droplets to enter your mouth when someone is coughing strongly in front of you,which is highly unlikely
    if masks were effective, numbers would have dropped by now...yet they are exploding
    it's even counter productive, because people think they are protected by wearing a mask, so they take more risks, instead of taking less risks
    In France we even have to wear masks outside, which is totally retarded if you understand how virus transmission works
    it's like saying : "wear a masks to prevent AIDS contamination". this is the same retardation
    Jeff
    AIDS isn’t transmitted by droplets or aerosols.
    Even though I’m sure you’ve made up your mind and there’s nothing that can convince you otherwise, but masks are predominantly to stop the spread from and infected person. They only help a little to stop oneself from catching it. Although the virus size is tiny, it still is predominantly expelled from the human body in droplets of various sizes, so masks help stop these spreading through the environment, even fine aerosol droplets.
    People talk about whether viruses are airborne or aerosol transmitted, but the reality is that it isn’t so clear cut and more an issue of how small the droplets can be. Often they come out of the body in droplets and then become more airborne as the water evaporates, so by reducing or catching many of the droplets coming from an infected person you can reduce the likelihood the viral load in the environment.
    In the case you give the idea is to stop the virus from spreading so much from that person coughing or sneezing. The mask you wear will only give a minimal amount of protection against infected people (unless N95 as you say). That’s kind of why it’s important for as many people as possible to wear masks, especially when people can be infectious before symptoms showing.
    If not in a crowd I’m not convinced of the necessity of masks outdoors, but seeing the success of various Asian countries managing COVID I’m convinced masks are a useful tool to be used in conjunction with others. Then again there’s an existing culture of wearing masks so not much resistance to wearing them. Having lived in Asia it seems really weird seeing how worked up some people in the west get about masks. Even if they don’t do much or are unproven I’d much rather make the small effort of wearing a mask and laugh about it as something silly if scientific consensus later proved them useless. Maybe I care about these things more because I’m on medication that affects my immune system.
    Anyway, I can’t speak to the use of masks in France and how effectively it had been paired with distancing and other measures. Have people been wearing their masks consistently? Is it spreading in environments where people are wearing masks or are the clusters through other close contact in situations where people aren’t wearing masks? My understanding is that the mask rules have recently been reintroduced, but it might be an issue of closing the gate once the horse has bolted.
    Anyway, I’m not sure whether one can train ones sense of smell to recover. I know of at least one person who has had partial anosmia from a mild case. I think 6-8 weeks later it’s almost back to normal. She tried stimulating her sense of smell, but it was more experimentation to see whether there were things she could smell better than others that would let her enjoy her food and tea more.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Quote Originally Posted by ionone View Post
    masks don't prevent anything : the pores in the mask fabric are 150 times bigger than the virus. So unless it's a N95 mask (which nobody wears, (except me),it's totally useless
    it would only prevents droplets to enter your mouth when someone is coughing strongly in front of you,which is highly unlikely
    if masks were effective, numbers would have dropped by now...yet they are exploding
    it's even counter productive, because people think they are protected by wearing a mask, so they take more risks, instead of taking less risks
    In France we even have to wear masks outside, which is totally retarded if you understand how virus transmission works
    it's like saying : "wear a masks to prevent AIDS contamination". this is the same retardation
    Jeff
    What an incredibly stupid thing to say.

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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Quote Originally Posted by ionone View Post
    In France we even have to wear masks outside, which is totally retarded if you understand how virus transmission works
    it's like saying : "wear a masks to prevent AIDS contamination".
    If you understood how virus transmission works, you’d realize how ignorant that statement is. As Darjeeling points out, the primary purpose of masks is to prevent outward transmission. At this, they are effective, though not 100%. They are less effective when 1) not everyone wears them, and 2) not everyone who does so does it correctly.

    In addition to erratic and improper mask wearing, numbers are climbing because—for a variety of psychological, economic, and political reasons—individuals, businesses, and governments are breaking protocol (or, as in the case of my country, failing to establish one). Colder weather makes it harder to conduct social and business gatherings outdoors, leading to more ill-advised indoor congregation. There are numerous other factors theorized to cause pandemics to come in waves, as this one appears to be doing.

    All the measures we have work to slow the transmission of the virus. They don’t stop it. That doesn’t mean the measures are useless. It just means we can’t let up, and we can’t stop looking for better preventatives, treatments, and perhaps an eventual cure.

    It would be more accurate to state that saying masks are useless because it’s possible to get catch the disease while wearing one is like saying seatbelts, airbags, and other auto safety features are useless because people still die in traffic accidents.
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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Quote Originally Posted by PStoller View Post
    It would be more accurate to state that saying masks are useless because it’s possible to get catch the disease while wearing one is like saying seatbelts, airbags, and other auto safety features are useless because people still die in traffic accidents.
    I've been using this analogy as well with anti-maskers....typically gets them to seal their pie hole.
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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Quote Originally Posted by ionone View Post
    the normal "flu" numbers are next to nothing now,why is that ? because all the "flu" deaths are counted as covid
    This is a valid point. Many deaths from various infections and non-infections are being attributed, rightly or wrongly, to Covid.

    The wording most news media is using is very misleading often stating someone died “after testing positive for Covid19”, NOT from it.
    This isn’t accidental.

    In the USA there are also monetary incentives for doctors to report deaths as Covid so there is also an overinflation of Covid death numbers due to a conflict of interests. It’s possible they may not see it as a problem as the person died anyway but when it is being done tens or hundreds of thousands of times it is potentially giving credence for governmental lockdown measures and the knock-on effects can be severe and substantial.
    Last edited by Sheik Yerbouti; 31st October 2020 at 06:43 PM.
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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    OMG. I'm scared. And worried. I'd better climb a tall tree and stay there until this nightmare passes.
    I don’t understand.It is so vast that surpasses all understanding.Understanding is always limited.But not understanding can have no boundaries.I feel like I'm much more complete when I don't understand.Not understanding,like I say,is a gift.Not understanding,but not as a simple-minded.The good thing is to be intelligent and not understand.It's a strange blessing, like having craziness without being crazy.It is a meek disinterest,it is a stupid sweetness.

  25. #25

    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Quote Originally Posted by tony_i View Post
    I don't understand why you find the 'news' confusing. The number of people testing positive and the number of people dying or in hospital is widely reported.
    If you're not getting that information you should find other news outlets, or at least pay more attention and apply some analysis.
    I didn't say I found the news confusing. What gave you that idea?

    I think perhaps you're confused!

    As you said, the number of people dying or in hospital is widely reported. I do understand that bad news, and fear, sells. However, what REALLY annoys me is that you never hear about people like me, the vast majority, that tested positive for the coronavirus, yet didn't feel ill at all, or had minor symptoms, or felt sick for a couple of weeks, and recovered. All you see and hear are the horror stories. I'm guessing this is because they want everyone to be scared shitless about the virus, otherwise people won't wear masks, won't keep their distance, will congregate in groups, etc. However, I am sick of being constantly sold the 'worst case scenario'. Constantly pushing the narrative of death, hospitalisation and 'long covid' sufferers to the exclusion of the vast majority of people that had the virus and got on with their lives is not an accurate portrayal of the real world.

    Here's a graph.
    Image22.jpg

    It seems all we ever hear about are the deaths. It's tunnel vision. Concentrating on one small thing, and ignoring everything else.

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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Quote Originally Posted by lindenduft View Post
    Has anyone any thoughts on this?
    Can't say that I have, but it's an idea that might be worth exploring.

  27. #27

    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Quote Originally Posted by lindenduft View Post
    There have been a lot of reports in the media about covid19 causing anosmia and other disturbances to the sense of smell - and the worrying thing is that sometimes they seem to last long after the illness itself has cleared up.

    I've been wondering if perfumery could assist in these cases - maybe the design of some kind of olfactory re-education programme? First thought was maybe something which would start with simple, small molecules, and gradually work up to the bigger molecules like musks, some of which are hard to detect even with "normal" olfactory capabilities.

    Has anyone any thoughts on this?
    I think it would be a waste of time. It's not like having special exercises to recover / rehabilitate from a stroke for example. In the case of anosmia, the sufferer would just have to wait it out and allow the body time to re-establish the olfactory sensitivity.

    On a side note, I wonder whether a BN'er with total anosmia would continue to wear a fragrance?

  28. #28

    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    I have had covid - lost maybe 40% of my sense of smell since March and it still hasn't returned fully.

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    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Quote Originally Posted by Darjeeling View Post
    AIDS isn’t transmitted by droplets or aerosols.
    well, if a contaminated person has a cut in his mouth or some gingivitis, some blood can mix with the saliva and if the person coughs loudly with open mouth then the blood can go into someone else mouth, who also has mouth problems and can contaminate him that way
    yes this is highly unlikely, but this is as unlikely as getting covid outside because you're not wearing a mask

  30. #30

    Default Re: covid19 anosmia

    Quote Originally Posted by rmm.0811 View Post
    I have had covid - lost maybe 40% of my sense of smell since March and it still hasn't returned fully.
    I am too have COVID and have anosmia, bat afret 1.5 monts my smell sensors restored on 100%




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