Must (very) small businesses, like Etsy sellers, be IFRA compliant?

[ShalimarKathy]

Hello all,

I've been a mostly silent user of BN for years, but I've been toying with the idea of starting a very small perfume business, via Etsy, and would appreciate some advice. So, nice to meet you all.

IFRA... I know we've all got our opinions on them. My questions are:

1. MUST a small UK seller follow IFRA guidelines by law?

2. If one chooses not to follow IFRA's standards, are there certain things (warnings, ingredients lists) that it's smart to provide?

I know from a bit of research that it is seemingly more common in the US for niche brands to openly reject IFRA standards, most notably Mr. Cross, middle name: 'absolutely not'. But I haven't seen anything like this in Europe, or the UK specifically.

Any help with this is humbly appreciated.

Best,
K

[chyprefresh]

Nobody enforcing IFRA compliance on eBay or Etsy, so technically no.

I would put a warning if you are using restricted ingredients above the IFRA limits on the description at the very least.

[Quay Limey]

Hi Kathy

Check out this site...

https://www.ctpa.org.uk/legislation

I'm on the verge of releasing my own line of fragrances and have just got to the stage where I'm reading about this subject but haven't settled on the exact procedure just yet. As I understand it, if you sell within the EU and UK you will need to follow the legislation and I think it would be beneficial if not mandatory to follow IFRA standards.

This thread has useful info...

https://www.basenotes.net/threads/44...-perfume-in-UK

Sam Macer on this very forum sells his own range so perhaps he can chime in and explain the necessary hoops we have to jump through, if he does follow such measures of course. I sell perfumes to private individuals and some don't conform to IFRA standards (some folk just love real oakmoss) but I always get them to sign a disclaimer in case of issues but it seems that isn't exactly legal.

If I find out more, which is inevitable given my current position, I'll report back on this thread or start a new one, which might be the best idea given how often this question is asked by limeys.

[Devil's Son In Law]

Nobody enforcing IFRA compliance on eBay or Etsy, so technically no.

I would put a warning if you are using restricted ingredients above the IFRA limits on the description at the very least.

Not exactly. We have discussed this at length on here many times, but here’s the short story...

In the US, the FDA mandates labeling. But doesn’t mandate IFRA. The liability is ALL on you, not Etsy or the store you sell in. So one lawsuit will likely wipe out a small company, win or lose, with legal costs. It sucks, but that’s our system. If you were sued, you would be in court saying, “To hell with IFRA” and once again, I can’t predict the results of a hypothetical lawsuit. I would want to show that I took all precautions. You do what you think is right for you.

In the EU, you MUST follow IFRA as directed by EU law and also label. And have a safety analysis done and uploaded to the EU web site.

The U.K. just had Brexit, but they were still following EU guidance last I saw. They still have U.K. safety analysis companies to preform the safety analysis and we had a recent thread on this.

[chyprefresh]

EU cannot enforce IFRA laws in UK anymore, they are detached completely. Now if he wants to sell to someone from a neighboring EU country that's another story I'm not clear on.

[Devil's Son In Law]

EU cannot enforce IFRA laws in UK anymore, they are detached completely. Now if he wants to sell to someone from a neighboring EU country that's another story I'm not clear on.

Without pretending to be a UK legal expert, I know from working for the US government in/with the UK that many EU regulations were continuing until the UK can replace them with their own legislation this year. This doesn’t happen overnight. So like I said, the UK is now transitioning from EU cosmetic law to new UK legislation. I wouldn’t give a guy in the UK advice unless I was an expert. Neither of us are, so I’ll tell him he definitely needs to find out before following any offhand advice from this forum.

https://www.ctpa.org.uk/brexit-advice

Supposedly, 1 Jan 21 started the new UK cosmetic policy...

https://www.cosmeticsdesign-europe.c...e-January-2021

[chyprefresh]

UK fragrance/cosmetic policy is on OP to know.

Etsy and eBay have no enforcement that I know of though, how would they keep up with small sellers?

[Devil's Son In Law]

Etsy or Ebay aren’t responsible, the manufacturer is. If someone wants to sue, it will be the manufacturer. Read the legal notices of these seller platforms and you will see they tell you that the seller is responsible for following all safety guidelines when selling their product and all liability is on you.

This concept makes complete sense. Macy’s doesn’t test every perfume sold for allergen compliance. It is up to the manufacturers.

The intellectual property and trademark infringement are the main legal issues they enforce. If a trademark owner finds you selling their property (like if you sold a perfume under a trademarked name) the legal office of the company would send a letter to Etsy with their proof of trademark and Etsy would delist your item. Then if the company through a lawsuit was in the best interest of the shareholders, they would once again sue you because Etsy says you are responsible for ensuring you own all rights for what you sell. I’ve experienced this myself with the owner of the trademark for a variant of “Bourbon” that I didn’t think could be trademarked so I didn’t check... but it was. Etsy took my listing down.

[Quay Limey]

Heh

Guys - OP is a lady, not a guy.

Anyway, what the Devilish One's writing is correct - you'll need to get a cosmetic safety test before release or sale. I'm not 100% yet but it appears that needs at least a sample of the 'fume, SDS and CoA for all lines of the formula and possibly packaging, though I'm not sure of the latter at present but you probably already know what a pain Royal Mail restrictions are when it comes to dangerous liquids.

The reasons for these measures are obvious and reinforced by Andrew above - you could end up in court and relieved of a lot of money or worse, harm someone.

Edit : The easy* bit is learning how to create a decent perfume. The hard bit is learning how to legally sell in the UK and EU.

*Not. The small range I'm looking to release has taken just over two years to perfect.

[Casper_grassy]

I think the seller should take all precautionary measures very seriously. Do whatever you can to protect yourself, I don’t know how quick people are to sue in the uk but in the us people win lawsuits for having to live because they didn’t choose to be born.

[Quay Limey]

people win lawsuits for having to live because they didn’t choose to be born.

Heh

Awesome. If you don't try etc.

[TheDeen]

While it's true that IFRA has 'guidelines' and doesn't actually govern compliance, the CPR (Cosmetic products regulation) does have to be complied with if you are placing products on the market in an EU state or the UK. Despite Brexit there's a continuation of EU regs until such time as the UK ones have been made law.

As far as I'm aware the inclusion of potential allergens on packaging/labelling etc... is covered by CPR.

Levels at which materials are restricted are published by IFRA.

[Quay Limey]

Can you recommend a firm that does the safety assessment or is it a matter of you pays y'money etc. ?

[TheDeen]

I work in the world of biocides and medical devices (BPR and MDD/MDR) but I do occasionally come across cosmetics, which I have tested products micro biologically speaking but stability and all that is a different story. There are consultants and outlets out there for doing it I'm sure. I casually chat to a few indy perfumers in the UK who probably would recommend some, and people like Sarah McCartney (4160 Tuesdays) run courses which equip you with everything you need to know to place a perfume on the market.
(I am in no way affiliated with SM or Tuesdays just to point that out)

Obviously my love of perfumes means I have a passing interest in cosmetics but I am by no means an expert.
What I would say is that before you put anything out there that people are going to put on their skin you must do your due diligence, to cover yourself as much as anything else.

Sure IFRA's justification for restrictions can be legitimately questioned (in some cases) and those who argue that the majority of people do not have adverse reactions maybe have a point but that's the same argument as that of the current pandemic....most people survive....yeah but what about the ones that don't?
(sorry getting too heavy)
Basically, I don't think that the anti-IFRA 'Rogue' and 'Renegade' crew are sending a good message, and it's not about being a square and kowtowing to the rules, this is the best system to ensure a degree of safety for consumers, is it perfect? No. but IFRA helps prevent it being taken out of the hands of the industry and certain materials being banned outright. We don't want that do we?

People who tend to slag IFRA off, when challenged, actually don't know what it is that they do. The common misconception being that they are getting tighter and more prohibitive each time, when that's not how it works. If they read the latest amendment for example they'd know that lots of materials had their restrictions relaxed as more data becomes available.

I know of American perfumers for example who are not IFRA compliant and fine I suppose (I don't seem to have a reaction to anything personally), but they are conscious of IFRA and keep up with the latest amendments, using it instead as a 'rule of thumb' so as not to make dangerous product that is not fit for purpose. A more responsible stance than just saying fuck it! I'll make what I want.

[Devil's Son In Law]

Good post, Deen. Yeah, in the US we will just keep our unfortunate lawsuit-happy concept for the near future. Europe has a lot more regulation than us cowboys, but the good part is less lawsuits. But IFRA is the mechanism that keeps EU politicians from banning the sale of perfume.

Here is a post from recently and I had found some EU safety assessment links. Again, I am a defense expert of 30 years working around the world, but I am not an expert in "international perfume law", so like you said... if you are selling, get an expert opinion before you do since it is your business. There is also liability insurance for perfume and candle sellers... different topic but related.

https://www.basenotes.net/threads/48...=1#post5080531

[Quay Limey]

Yeah thanks for the input, Deen.

Because I had a good idea that I wanted to create small batch fragrances for sale to the public I followed the IFRA stuff from the outset. I started reading about the other legislation in November last year because I had the juice for three perfumes ready to rock and was deciding on bottles and whether or not to use labels or printing or even etching but I really wished I'd looked into the important stuff earlier. I have and am still considering paying for the info that Sarah offers or, if I can glean the necessary stuff from the web and direct contact with firms, just a quick consultation from Chris or someone on how to go about getting a proprietary material registered/analysed (just a tincture) before I knock up the bulk of the fourth and fifth fragrances.

It's exciting but very heavy going when you first dip your toe into the regulations and although I envy the US and their ability to stick it to the man through choice, I don't think I'd sleep too well knowing that someone might sue me for everything I have and then some.

I think I'm going to have to keep chipping away at the legislation until it sinks in, which is difficult when I can't seem to stop blending and coming up with new ideas. Perhaps a consultation is the quickest way forward without interfering with the creative side too much. It's bloody hard work doing it all alone, for sure.

Thanks again.

My apologies for the slight derail, Kathy.

[Saraiva]

Intending to make some kind of perfume or cosmetic product in the EU and certainly in the UK, poses so many problems that for small niches it is not profitable.
I wanted to make handmade soaps and following the Law was so expensive that I had to make tons of soaps to pay for these expenses.
I gave up, I do it just for myself.
The EU belongs to big companies, not ordinary citizens.

[Bill Roberts]

I had wondered why Chris Bartlett has added so few perfumes to his line (Pell Wall) over the years, as I'd highly expect he has created many more than what he offers.

Perhaps all this exceedingly burdensome regulation is why. Just not worth it.

[Quay Limey]

I doubt that the regs would limit Chris Bartlett’s range as he already has the necessary conduits in place but I would agree that he more than likely creates stuff on commission for other brands. I can’t say for sure but I would imagine the sale of materials is quite a large part of his day at present and for the last few years and I can imagine it depriving him of time to create new things. Just conjecture.

On the same topic, I seem to recall John Stephen of Cotswold being the creator of various niche house stuff available but again, can’t say for sure as I’ve never met the guy.

Intending to make some kind of perfume or cosmetic product in the EU and certainly in the UK, poses so many problems that for small niches it is not profitable.
I wanted to make handmade soaps and following the Law was so expensive that I had to make tons of soaps to pay for these expenses.
I gave up, I do it just for myself.
The EU belongs to big companies, not ordinary citizens.

Respectfully, I think it’s slightly misleading to say there is no profit to be had due to the regs and associated costs. Over the last few days I’ve learnt that the cost of getting your product analysed and safety checked is relatively small, which was surprising. It could get expensive if you have a back and forth over many variations and mods but if you’ve done your sums and ensured everything is within the IFRA standards then you should be golden. Labelling and packaging rules have to be followed but again, not a massive cost or inconvenience and something you would’ve figured in, surely. PLI is not that expensive and it appears a few firms specialise in the cosmetic industry. The biggest cost regarding legislation seems to be membership of the IFRA but I haven’t yet worked out whether or not this is mandatory in the UK. I’d like to think that folk would respect that you are a member and acting responsibly based on their rules. I’ll post up details of all my finding once I’m settled.

Anyway, if profit was the only factor you’d be better off starting a different business, but for me there’s a passion for the whole thing; the art. I’m more interested in getting my work out there for others to enjoy, not becoming the next celebrity perfumer or go out and grab myself a flash motor off the back of it. I do it because I love it and realised I had a talent for it and want to share that. I’m very lucky in so far as money is no problem for me and neither is time so that gives me an advantage over many folk I guess. But regardless, I enjoy perfumery and the way in which you can capture naturals and bring that into the home at any time of the year with air care products. The same with fragrances; a mood, a moment in time, a location, a drink etc. We all know how they can work when done well.

I’ve never been one to throw in the towel in the first round. I write music and draw/paint as well as a multitude of other creative stuff and I’ve gravitated to perfumery for the last six years because it holds more interest for me at the moment - a deep passion that I want to share. If I make a few quid from the it then all good. If it fails to impress and is rejected by the masses, so be it.

Art is a fickle thing.

As an aside, I noticed a few chaps from this dark isle selling their frags online. I was hoping they’d chip in and share their experiences of how they get their products ready for sale to the public and any regs that need following but I guess all folk don’t read all threads or something…

My apologies for the lengthy post and well done if you actually got this far.

[Bobby Seven]

Hello all,

I've been a mostly silent user of BN for years, but I've been toying with the idea of starting a very small perfume business, via Etsy, and would appreciate some advice. So, nice to meet you all.

IFRA... I know we've all got our opinions on them. My questions are:

1. MUST a small UK seller follow IFRA guidelines by law?

2. If one chooses not to follow IFRA's standards, are there certain things (warnings, ingredients lists) that it's smart to provide?

I know from a bit of research that it is seemingly more common in the US for niche brands to openly reject IFRA standards, most notably Mr. Cross, middle name: 'absolutely not'. But I haven't seen anything like this in Europe, or the UK specifically.

Any help with this is humbly appreciated.

Best,
K

I am having similar musings at the moment as to what is the best way to get some of my fragrances a bit more out there without jumping through what seem like impossible and expensive hoops!

If there were a simplified guide one could follow when formulating (especially using naturals) then the creative process would be less hampered. Does anyone provide an easy to follow guide on how to take the rest of the necessary steps formulation aside?

I've toyed with selling the fragrances alongside perfume lockets with the disclaimer that as I'm a small indie perfumer they are not certified as skin safe products and that use on the skin is at their own risk.

Very interested if others can provide clear info on this, I've searched the forums and it all just makes me want to give up! Ifra website isnt user friendly in the slightest either

Happy Wednesday everyone

[Bill Roberts]

At least in the US, doing something such as saying "using it in such-and-such manner is at your own risk" does not necessarily protect against lawsuit when people use in that manner.

The strategy you mention, at least in the US, would be closer to air-tight or perhaps even air-tight if providing the locket and then saying plainly with no cutesy stuff, such as "Contains fragrance allergens. No testing has been performed for safety on skin. Do not use on skin."

Or conceivably, just that last sentence. I don't know if the first two are necessary or advantageous.

Of course, some will take that seriously and, wishing a perfume to put on their skin, will then not buy your product. So there is a cost to that route. As opinion, anything cutesy enough to not much harm sales to those wishing to use on skin will not be sufficient to protect against lawsuit (again, speaking of the US only.)

[Devil's Son In Law]

Oh I understand you now... you mean have a simpler procedure to follow so you can be more creative. Yeah, don't think that's possible since naturals can contain several allergens, and you need to add up the levels from ALL sources to make sure you don't bust. The methyl eugenol in rose absolute may be under the level, but if you add more things with methyl eugenol, or just add straight methyl eugenol, you could bust IFRA if you don't add all the levels up. Of course if you have lots of resources like Firmenich and Guivadan, you just do a GCMS and verify that way.

Sure, others sell in the US as non-IFRA compliant, and it is legal here. We like less regulation, but more lawsuits in the US. In the UK and EU, it is NOT legal to sell non-IFRA fragrances. Just because someone bought a non-IFRA perfume at a Bulgarian flea market, this doesn't mean it's legal. If they enforce the law, you'll get fined and whatever else. A lot of people base their idea of what's legal on, "I saw someone else do it" but all that means is you saw them break the law.

For using IFRA site, go here... https://ifrafragrance.org/safe-use/library

Scroll down to the search box ("Search Title, CAS...") and type in the CAS number of the material you are checking. It will bring up a link for a PDF all about the limits of the material. You can also go here... https://ifrafragrance.org/safe-use/s...-documentation

The 49th Ammendment is a couple sections down and it has Excel sheets with all of the materials and all of the limits by categories (perfume, soap, etc.)

[Bill Roberts]

Just a thought, for the US not UK or EU.

And with immediate necessary disclaimer: While I have to deal with product liability in a couple of other areas, I am not a lawyer so not expert on it, and I don't even deal with it in fragrance. So just a thought to throw on the table and certainly not advice.

For a perfume that does not meet IFRA standards, but is in line with what has decades of sales in the United States and, with due diligence, one has not found real evidence that a danger is posed with the levels used, one might say:

"May cause allergic response in susceptible individuals. Product contains fragrance allergens in excess of levels permitted in the European Union."

A difference between here and the above is that merely asserting that a person uses a product at their own risk while providing no information as to why leaves more room for one's acts to be found negligent than where one makes clear what type of risk exists and what product issue is causing that risk. It still does not extract a signed agreement from the person that they assume all risk, and btw even having such an agreement does not always suffice if negligence (possibly, gross negligence) can be proven.

By no means would it be a get-out-of-jail-free card where one would then have no lawsuit risk at all, but I think it would be better than simply asserting that use is at the buyer's own risk.

Even only if in reducing likelihood of individuals contacting an attorney in the first place. Potentially, many getting a rash from the product might, if told the above in that way, feel "Oh, well, they told me, guess I'm susceptible and made a bad call" rather than dial Morgan & Morgan or whatever.

[Bobby Seven]

Great input everyone, I'm thinking surely there must be companies that provide this service? Someone I can go to, give them my product, they can tell me what I'm over by and how to rectify this (either by reducing the concentration from 15% to 12% for example or by using x amount less rose absolute etc)

Does such a place exist or is it all down to the perfumer? Seems crazy to me and near impossible, there must be a way for someone to simplify the process and make it accessible to the average perfumer who does not have a degree in rocket science surely?

[needaname]

In the UK and EU, it is NOT legal to sell non-IFRA fragrances. Just because someone bought a non-IFRA perfume at a Bulgarian flea market, this doesn't mean it's legal.

Just a small correction there. I think two things are being mixed there. There is the law/regulations which the government puts up and there is the guidelines IFRA puts out. Laws are mandatory, you have to follow them. So if the law says you can have a max of 0.1% Atranol in your perfume then you have to follow that, otherwise it is illegal. On the other hand if IFRA says you cannot use Musk Ketone. But the law does not say anything about it, you can still legally use Musk Ketone(last time I checked a while back I think this was the case where you could legally use Musk Ketone even though IFRA prohibited it.) and even sell it even if it is not IFRA compliant.

IFRA is a voluntary body that you can become a member of, their guidelines are just that guidelines for their members. I would assume their guidelines are mandatory for their members. If you are not part of IFRA there is nothing that says you have to follow it legally. IFRA is not a government regulatory body.

You can read about it here https://magazine.moellhausen.com/ifr...ry-environment or just google it to get a sense of what IFRA is and is not

With that being said, I come from a place where there are virtually no regulations at all. I am more comfortable using designer products from large European brands because they have stricter laws and regulations. Compared to say an indie American or Middle Eastern perfume. I think it is important to make sure what you put is as safe as possible for the end user and if that means following stricter guidelines by IFRA then all the better.

[Devil's Son In Law]

Just a small correction there. I think two things are being mixed there. There is the law/regulations which the government puts up and there is the guidelines IFRA puts out. Laws are mandatory, you have to follow them. So if the law says you can have a max of 0.1% Atranol in your perfume then you have to follow that, otherwise it is illegal. On the other hand if IFRA says you cannot use Musk Ketone. But the law does not say anything about it, you can still legally use Musk Ketone(last time I checked a while back I think this was the case where you could legally use Musk Ketone even though IFRA prohibited it.) and even sell it even if it is not IFRA compliant.

IFRA is a voluntary body that you can become a member of, their guidelines are just that guidelines for their members. I would assume their guidelines are mandatory for their members. If you are not part of IFRA there is nothing that says you have to follow it legally. IFRA is not a government regulatory body.

You can read about it here https://magazine.moellhausen.com/ifr...ry-environment or just google it to get a sense of what IFRA is and is not

With that being said, I come from a place where there are virtually no regulations at all. I am more comfortable using designer products from large European brands because they have stricter laws and regulations. Compared to say an indie American or Middle Eastern perfume. I think it is important to make sure what you put is as safe as possible for the end user and if that means following stricter guidelines by IFRA then all the better.

No, got it. I'm not mixing. Very clear that IFRA is not a law, but the law says you must have a safety assessment which checks for IFRA levels, thus... the LAW mandates IFRA compliance, labeling, and some banned materials (example - IFRA "allows" Lilial and Lyral, but the EU banned them, which is a law.)

[needaname]

No, got it. I'm not mixing. Very clear that IFRA is not a law, but the law says you must have a safety assessment which checks for IFRA levels, thus... the LAW mandates IFRA compliance, labeling, and some banned materials (example - IFRA "allows" Lilial and Lyral, but the EU banned them, which is a law.)

IFRA is a industry body. It has no relevance to an approval/legality. When you do a legal assessment you will have to check against the laws not the rules set down by an industry body. IFRA is like an ISO certification in other industries. No gov body will deny you a permit if you do not follow/have a ISO certificate. They will deny you a permit in case you do not follow the laws. If there is a conflict between the two i.e. if the ISO cert requirements are stricter and the laws laxer you will not be denied a permit for following the laxer gov mandated rules.

Anyway I will leave this older post from a member that lives and works in the EU for anyone that wants to read up on the difference.

https://www.basenotes.net/threads/32...ame-some-facts

[Quay Limey]

Okay, for what it’s worth and for Bobby Seven and those with weak Google Fu right now, here are some links that I hasten to add have not been checked, they’re posted here as examples…

http://superactivecosmetics.co.uk/price-structure

https://www.sgs.co.uk/en-gb/consumer...ty-report-cpsr

https://www.aromantic.co.uk/pages/sa...llenge-testing

If you can’t get your head around it all and need it broken down into layman’s terms and with the added benefit of asking questions (probably), there’s this…

https://www.4160tuesdays.com/4160tue...gulations.html

To quote a section from the above - “Running a perfume brand is 95% admin and 5% perfumery with a lot of maths, so it's best to know the realities before you commit to it.”

You should've already downloaded the zip of all IFRA restricted or banned materials and following the link below will help with that.

https://ifrafragrance.org/safe-use/library

Anyway, as I understand so far (and I’m more than happy to be corrected here) and reinforcing what others have explained. I make no apology for any duplicate info…

• Make your product and check the formula against the IFRA regs as a total compound, ensuring the collective doesn’t give rise to a breach of restrictions.
• Get your compound safety assessed and stability checked by a chemist or firm that offer that service (see above links). You’ll need just one IFRA compliance document for the entire product, not a SDS and CoA for every line, though in order to comply and check you’ll need most of them yourself. It’ll be more costly if you’ve failed to do your sums so try and stick within the confines rather than push it as close as you can, is my tip.
• Packaging and labelling also need to comply with legislation.
• Get some Public Liability Insurance

The things I’m not yet sure on…

For my lab I made a clean room. It has safety stuff like fire extinguishers, forced ventilation, eye wash, sink, cold store, fridge, freezer etc. and is easy to wipe down and keep spotless. I believe this is something you may have to follow but I would suggest maybe searching the HSE website for further info. It makes sense to be close to that anyway regardless of legislation but it depends on your OCD level, I guess.

The final product has to be registered before sale but only after all the necessary checks and analyses.

I hope to have some of the above corrected or gaping holes filled in by someone that knows better. As for an “Umbrella Corp”* that does it all for you - can’t find anyone at present and have discussed the forming of exactly that with friends and partner but I don’t have the expertise by a country mile.

I’d seriously suggest a course if you can’t get your head around it all.

Edit : Needaname's link to Irina's thread is very informative. Just saw that - sorry for any overlap.

*That gave me an idea for a new frag - T-Virus.

Very fashionable...

[myhaiku]

Bobby Seven, yes there are companies that do this. They will reproduce your fragrance for you and do the paperwork, however you have to have a registered business/tax # to work with them.

[Quay Limey]

Clearly my Google fu is weak, too.

Do you have a link to an example of such a company, Myhaiku...?