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  1. #1
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    Default Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    So is anyone considering the Matt Meleg Masterclass in classic perfumery?

    Level 1, Online course, a snip at $600.

    Any takers?
    Currently wearing: Dilettante by Hiram Green

  2. #2

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    What a fraud.

    He could, however, genuinely offer a master class in something else entirely, namely that for which he was banned.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    What's the story with that guy, then? In as few words as possible.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    He came on here as a newbie -- absolutely fine, of course, we all start from there -- but quickly moved to making all kinds of assertions and presenting himself as expert at one moment, then excuse himself as being just a beginner at another, and personally I found it impossible to make sense that he would have actually believed what he was saying much of the time as opposed to saying things to generate reaction. Of which there were many. David Ruskin left the forum not 100% on account of this fellow but with fighting from this poster a final trigger.

    It has been no lengthy time since his ban and he was very amateur at that time, so he cannot be a master now.

    There has been an issue at least once of it being found inappropriate to discuss this past matter too much and so I will leave it at that and hope that it is within bounds. I tried for it to be.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quay Limey View Post
    What's the story with that guy, then? In as few words as possible.
    Watching from a distance, before I was a moderator, he seemed like a potentially insincere poster. Normally best ignored, he generated a lot of activity anyway from people refuting his claims. The situation has caused enough stress, so I wouldn't post in here unless it's short and sweet.

    If this post kills the thread, I would be impressed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    He came on here as a newbie -- absolutely fine, of course, we all start from there -- but quickly moved to making all kinds of assertions and presenting himself as expert at one moment, then excuse himself as being just a beginner at another, and personally I found it impossible to make sense that he would have actually believed what he was saying much of the time as opposed to saying things to generate reaction. Of which there were many. David Ruskin left the forum not 100% on account of this fellow but with fighting from this poster a final trigger.

    It has been no lengthy time since his ban and he was very amateur at that time, so he cannot be a master now.

    There has been an issue at least once of it being found inappropriate to discuss this past matter too much and so I will leave it at that and hope that it is within bounds. I tried for it to be.
    You're fine.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    Thanks for that.

    I've read enough of this forum to appreciate most of what The Ruskin posted. I think his reluctance to post is a loss to this forum regardless of whether or not you like his style or/and tone.

    I won't be signing up...


    Edit : Thanks, too, to you, Bavard. I won't poke the bear any further.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    Hi,

    Yes clearly my post was deliberately provocative, sorry. I remember the whole thing but I didn't realise the feeling about MM ran so deep.

    It was just to point out that people are selling snake oil, and courses on how to make the aforementioned snake oil.

    I see the debate on posts like this as a valuable public service, rather than a personal attack or anything of that nature.
    But I do think he's a fraud and bad for perfumery. Like I said, people need to know that.
    Currently wearing: Dilettante by Hiram Green

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    So far, you three have been lovely. So many threads, though, have been turning ugly in the DIY forum, and I'm trying to stay ahead of it.

    I'm dreading the first unhinged post, but maybe it will never come!

    Update: I failed to defuse the situation, and now a couple people have been banned for a week. I really was trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeen View Post
    Hi,

    Yes clearly my post was deliberately provocative, sorry. I remember the whole thing but I didn't realise the feeling about MM ran so deep.

    It was just to point out that people are selling snake oil, and courses on how to make the aforementioned snake oil.

    I see the debate on posts like this as a valuable public service, rather than a personal attack or anything of that nature.
    But I do think he's a fraud and bad for perfumery. Like I said, people need to know that.
    You've essentially set a trap for people to get banned, but they have to walk into it.

    Moderating this board has been hard work, so the timing is good to get a reading of who or what is actually behind the acrimony.
    Last edited by Bavard; 21st January 2021 at 03:35 PM.

  9. #9
    Basenotes Junkie Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    David Ruskin left the forum not 100% on account of this fellow but with fighting from this poster a final trigger.
    I'm sad that I joined BN after David Ruskin left and never got the opportunity to converse with him. He genuinely seemed to love to talk all things perfumery and gave impactful responses and great information in his posts. He was a plethora of knowledge and wasn't afraid to share his knowledge with the group
    ...bathing in perfumes...
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    Since he is a devotee of Perfumers World, another discredited place to go to learn what will need to be unlearned, one would fully expect to throw your money away.

    For a person who continually disclaimed to be a Perfumer here on BN, and now wants to teach a "Master class".
    For a person who wants to call me on my house phone to simply issue a threat to beat me up.

    He does not belong to the world of Perfumery that values the safety of their customer.

    What is in his mind needs to stay there, instead of being deposited into someone else's.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  11. #11
    Basenotes Junkie Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    For a person who wants to call me on my house phone to simply issue a threat to beat me up.
    If you 2 got into a fight, ...I'd put my money on you.
    Last edited by Bkkorn; 21st January 2021 at 06:03 PM.
    ...bathing in perfumes...
    ► Follow my perfumery journey on Youtube

  12. #12

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    What perhaps we should have had as standard practice once difficulty began would be having a WWE-style "Retirement Match," in which the disputants must each meet a brief posed by the moderators, and on evaluation of the briefs, the loser must retire.

    Fisticuffs would be unbecoming, though it is true that in (to me) the somewhat related field of music, Bach did once have to draw his sword on I think a bassoonist if I recall correctly to end a given musical dispute.

    EDIT: Trying to check facts, while I definitely read "sword" on previous occasion, this article says dagger, and has it that Bach reached for it rather than drew it. The kerfuffle was caused by Bach informing him that his sound was that of a "nanny-goat bassoonist," upon which point said bassoon player had it that "You may not have insulted me, but you insulted my bassoon. Anybody who insults my bassoon insults me!"

    The bassoonist then proceeded to have at him physically, hitting the composer with a stick.

    Actually all that is sounding not too dissimilar from perfuming conflicts!

    For any interested, Bach did avoid a ban, according to the article. Wisely, he restrained himself to criticizing only the content, namely, the bassoon sound, as admitted even by his antagonist. That is probably what saved him a week in exile. Possibly a lesson in proper comportment!

    EDIT: Another account reads a little differently, I won't recount the differences:

    Geyersbach recruited a few other musicians whom Bach had verbally abused, and one evening they accosted the composer as he strolled through a park with Barbara [whom Bach later married, and the bassoonist was infatuated with.] Geyersbach, a larger man, thrashed Bach with his cane; Bach pulled out a dagger. The men were eventually pulled apart. Bach brought the case before a church court in Arnstadt. Geyersbach was declared guilty but not punished, since Bach’s insult had provoked the attack. Bach was advised to learn to get along with his students.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.


  14. #14
    Basenotes Junkie SubUmbra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    For people reading wondering whether or not the Meleg class is worth it: consider that I just attended some Institute for Art & Olfaction accords classes a few months ago and Matt was an attendee. Now, I'm not saying that taking an accords class means someone isn't "ready" to start their own fragrance brand (which Matt has done)...and I'm not saying that Matt isn't completely devoid of any perfuming knowledge (he clearly has enough to make his own perfumes which some people seem to enjoy, though some of his may cause irritation).

    ...But let me put it this way: would you want a person charging 600 for a perfumery course to have also recently attended multiple accord classes from another instructor? Being a proper teacher/instructor seems like something to do only once you have at least a few years of experience under your belt and/or enough experience to deem yourself specialized in a particular area of perfumery.

    Also, wow ourmess, what a deep, deep cut!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    Quite entertaining disputing here: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Topics/Bassoon.htm

    You have to get about a third down the page before it really gets going. It is almost identical in style to some we have had here.

    Glad it was there not here!

    I shall now re-grab my popcorn and return to the above slugfest!

    It can actually be enjoyable when it's not here. Here, it is not, not remotely.

    In particular it's a shame when we lose someone because of it. And that includes Matt. But for the unnecessary problems, a shame to lose him, as with others we have lost.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    It does seem I have gotten into a sidetrack, but as always we must not put out misinformation, and when information becomes dubious, it should be corrected.

    I indeed had read earlier that the "nanny goat" was a reference to poor sound produced.

    However, extensive learned discussion seems not to support this:

    Christoph Wolff in his recent Bach biography, "J. S. Bach - The Learned Musician," has translated "Zippel Fagottist" as "greenhorn bassoonist", a term used by the 20-year-old Bach to the 23-year-old Geyersbach, who according to Barbara Catharina's (Bach's future wife) legal testimony had 'initiated the incident by addressing Bach first.' Wolff goes on to explain: "...the affair that provoked Bach to call Geyersbach a 'Zippel Fagottist' suggests that they were engaged in making concerted music together, which involved the participation of a bassoon. Incidentally, the old German 'fagott' is not the same instrument as the 'basson' of the late 17th-century French orchestra, and although contemporary terminology is not always consistent, it seems plausible that Geyersbach played a dulcian, that is, a prototype of the bassoon, in one piece and tuned to the higher "Chorton" pitch (rather than the French type with joints, in the lower chamber pitch,) the kind of instrument that -- as the German name "Chorist-Fagott suggests- played a dominant role as a continuo instrument in late 17th-century German church music.

    What is presumably Bach's earliest surviving cantata, "Nach dir, Herr, verlanget mich" BWV 150, requires a 'Fagotto' in Chorton pitch and assigns it a demanding role in the 5th mvt., "Aria Alto, Tenore et Basso con Fagotto" --a part probably beyond the capability of the said "Zippel Fagottist.""

    Cassell's or the Oxford German/English dictionaries will moslikely be insufficient to deal with a pejorative term of this sort, nevertheless it may be instructive to consult and ponder the results given by the Grimm Brother's Dictionary of the German Language (the DWB=Deutsches Wörterbuch), a dictionary easily comparable to the largest, most comprehensive dictionary of the English Language: the OED (The Oxford English Dictionary.)

    There is no entry for "Zippel Fagottist" or "Zippelfagottist," but there are leads that will put us in the right direction to uncover the etymological origin of "Zippel." "Zippel" is a Low German (Niederdeutsch) dialect form of "Zipfel." The latter shows the later consonant shift to High German, whereas the former is the older form that remained 'unshifted' from the time of the Hanseatic League (where it was the official legal language) until today where it exists only in dialects spoken in North Germany. However, the DWB has documented "Zippel" as extending all the way down to Northern Thuringia which is Bach's home territory. In any case, Bach could have heard this dialect form in Celle where he was a high school student.

    "Zippel" could mean at least two things with the first meaning having a wider application and the second being rather restricted in range:

    1. "Zippel" is a diminutive form of "Zipp" (Low German) or, likewise, "Zipfel" of "Zipf" (High German) [notice again the consonant shift from 'PP' to "PF" - actually, the 'Z' in 'Zipp' had already undergone a consonant shift from an even earlier Anglo-Saxon form, "Tip" or "Tipp." Now the picture should be complete even for someone who speaks only English. Here are some of the meanings:

    a) the 'tip' or corner of a piece of cloth or article of clothing; the 'tip' of a mountain, or tree, of any human organ, in particular the sexual organs, etc.; [there is a possibility here of sexual innuendo if you consider that 'Zippel' is a diminutive form of 'Zipp' - no wonder that Bach had to draw his sword after he spoke this/these word(s.)

    b) the figurative meanings are: the tassels that hang down from a fools' cap [this can imply that the person who is called a 'Zippel-*' is a fool, a dunce, or is simply stupid]; to get the short end (tip) of something (intelligence?); migrant workers were called "Zippelläufer" = [those that run around ["laufen"] like crazy and never settle down to a more permanent job [documented 1670].

    2. "Zippel" exists in numerous dialects as representing the word, "Zwiebel" ["onion."] These forms can be found from Schleswig Holstein in the North ("zippel, zipel, or ziepel") to St. Gallen in the South ("zipolla.") It helps here to know that the German word for 'onion' looks back to Late Latin forms such as "cepulla, (a diminutive form of 'cepe' or 'cepa') cibula or cibulla." Besides referring to the plant that we know as the 'onion,' it also has figurative meanings that derive from it:

    a) roundness, deepness (to be so 'deep' in debt so as to be unable to break through all the layers of skin, documented 1745), the strong, pungent odor that causes tears, worthlessness.

    b) from "Zwiebel" comes a verb "zwiebeln" which means to anger, vex, annoy, hazing, torture (probably because of the onion's odor.) This could describe Geyersbach as the one who caused 'tears' to form in Bach's eyes and was simply a player that annoyed Bach the same way that cutting a batch of onions can be annoying for a cook.

    Summary:

    I do not see the 'nanny-goat' connection, nor is there any basis in fact for the 'greenhorn' interpretation.

    It must be one of the following:

    a) derogatory sexual innuendo

    b) the fools' cap (one way to humiliate an individual is to make him wear one) which is the equivalent to calling a person 'stupid.'

    c) an utterly annoying individual that one wishes to remove from the environment because his playing 'stinks' like an onion.

    d) the musical contribution to the ensemble is as 'worthless' as an onion.

    I still do not have a good English translation for this phrase. Does anyone else have any ideas as to what the translation into modern English should be?


    Ludwig wrote (October 1, 2002):
    [To Klaus Langrock] I have investigated this term as a mispelling and have come up empty handed and my friends whose mother tongue is German have no knowledge of this word. Perhaps it is hidden away in some dictionary written between 17th to the 19th century as I can not find it in any slang references.



    Dick Wursten wrote (October 1, 2002):
    Maarten 't Hart, Johann Sebastian Bach, (2000) page 16-33 (!) gives a resume of all the versions of this incident that he could lay hands on. (Before 1904 no one (Spitta!) mentions it. 1904 speech Diakonus Weissgerber, who revealed it based on the original documents of the consisitorium of Arnstadt);

    A few elements, but almost every one gives an own colour to it, orders them differently, introduces new elements, which are copied by others etc.., then someone misunderstands a german expression is copied etc...

    CS Terry, M&S Sidney Grew (=Terry + some own psychological embroidering about how impressed niece Barabara must have been by the duelling skills of youngman Bach) Malcom Boyd (translation: nanny-goat, first to give the names of the two companions of G), Karl Geiriger (no mention of the 'niece' anymore, introduction of 'holes' in the camizole of Geyersbach caused by Bachs sword; luckily surrounders separated the two); Tim Dowley (they fought and Bach tore the clothing of G in pieces with his sword); FV Grunfeldt (ferocious fight from man to man); Ch. Headington (G was drunk; Bach pulls a knife); Robertson (short), Ant Cherbuliez, HBrandts Buys (only one line); Ad Vos (intro: at one night Bach had ONCE AGAIN lost his temper completely and &c.... holes in the coat, almost bloodshed); Schweitzer (no mention of the term Zippel..); Paumgartner (knows why G felt offended). W. Felix (moralizes Bach). Luc-Andre Marcel is the top of the bill... Just look at this:

    "When Bach conducts the choir he very often starts to scold. He got angry, lost his temper completely and made himself ridiculous by his comic anger. Thats the way he treated his pupils in Arnstadt.. two years constant clashes, eruptions of anger, insults, fierce protesting from the students, culminating in a nocturnal fight... Geyersbach had been making some jokes with his bassoon, Bach called him Zippelfagottist, which caused general hilarity. G decided to revenge himself... fight.. Our virtuoso who had his sword with him, resisted cleverly, quickly remembering what he had learned about the art of swordfighting. Soon already the shirt of G was torn. Hit on hit and one can be quite sure that a murder would have happened if not the neighbours had been wakened by the noise and had interfered.."

    Guido van Hoof (Pelckmans) introduces a new element walking stick, both men 'roll over the ground' fighting. G. had been drinking too much. EMI-companion guide..'it was a dark night', the two men already didnot like eachother... Kolneder: Bach was smoking a pipe; Geyersbach attacked Bach with his "Brügel". The niece acts as a peace-restorer; Otterbach: 'How this incident happened can not be reconstructed in detail anymore from the documents we possess'. Sandberger; (Bach lacked authority and tried to restore it by threatening with his sword only) Klaus Eidam speaks of a complot of 6 pupils (all names mentioned) to force bach to apologize to Geyersbach. Bach probably had his violin box with him, the cudgel was used, Bach answered with the sword; Eidam also supposes class-(in)justice in the judgment of the consitorium.

    So far this summary... (14 pages with 't Hart) compare the 'Bach-dokumente'

    4 august 1705...
    5 august complaint of Bach: 'late at night (in the evening). returning from the castle, at the market, 6 pupils sitting at 'Langer Stein'. One (Geyersbach) started to follow him and 'war mit dem Brügel uf ihm loss gegangen, mit diesen Formalien; Worumb er ihn geschimpfet hette' (went for him with a cudgel, asking why he had called him names (scolded him??). Bach said he has not called him names, at which G replied hat he had scolded his bassoon (called names). "Und wer seine Sachen schimpfte, der schimpfte auch ihn... geredet wie ein Hunds. uf ihn losgeschlagen". Bach wanted to draw his sword, but before he could, G started to fight with him (wrestling) until the other pupils came to his help, so that he could continue his way home. Two names are mentioned as witnesses..' End of Bach’s testimony.. 14 august 1705: Geyersbach declares. He came from a baptismparty and saw Bach coming smoking a pipe. He went to him, because Bach had called him "Zippel Fagottist". Bach had immediately drawn his sword. Bach also present denies and states that G had immediately started to shout and hit him, which obliged him to draw his sword. G denies. Student HOFFMANN is heard. He confirms the fighting, doesnt know how the fight started. When he interfered Geyersbach clinged to the sword of Bach, which Bach had drawn. When they fell, he separated them, because things became to dangerous ("bey solchen fallen leicht ein Unglück entstehen"). He sent them home. The second student was also sumoned (SCHUTTWURFEL), but he stated he was not present at all, but at home.
    19 august Bach is scorned for naming Geyersbach Zippelfagottist.
    21 august: The niece testifies: Bach had drawn his sword, but done nothing with it. they had been wrestling a little, students stood around, she herself finally had encouraged her nephew to stop and come with her. He did not smoke a pipe then, she also stated. Geyersbach is present again. He says his camisole has holes in it, caused by Bachs sword.

    This are all the elements.
    Narrative power is a great gift to mankind. But historians better should stick to the facts. That is: about the young Bach we know as good as nothing. To use this incident (and that is what it is: an incident) to make up a complete psychological and didactical profile of the 20year old Bach is not allowed.

    The fact that I have been penalized once for ignoring a traffic sign, does not reveal anything at all about my driving-style.

    Dick Wursten wrote (October 1, 2002):
    Two remarks:
    1. Zippel = Zippeler = German word derived from latin Discipulus (=pupil) says Konrad Küster, der junge Bach. Found this in the book of 't Hart. I am not able to judge but sounds very refreshing after all that goat-business:
    Bach is 20 years old
    Geyersbach is 23 years old
    So: By using this term the established organist Bach (though young, he is accomplished) accentuates the social and musical distance with Geyersbach (not accomplished, but older)

    2. In the original documents of 5 aug 1704 (see my last email) Bach and Geyersbach unite in stating that Bach has not called Geyersbach names, but only 'his instrument'. (eu-femism ??)

    Thomas Braatz wrote (October 1, 2002):
    Dick Wursten indicates:
    < 1. Zippel = Zippeler = German word derived from latin Discipulus (=pupil) says Konrad Küster, der junge Bach. Found this in the book of 't Hart. I am not able to judge but sounds very refreshing after all that goat-business. >
    Konrad Küster is definitely 'scraping the bottom of the barrel here.' The DWB (The Grimm Brothers' German Dictionary) indicates "Zippeler" with this etymological derivation is a very rare form (only two examples given) that existed only in MHD (The Middle High German period - roughly during the 11th, 12th, 13th century.) There is no way that this could be connected with the phrase under discussion here.

    Stevan Vasiljevic wrote (October 1, 2002):
    Ludwig wrote:
    < I have investigated this term as a mispelling and have come up empty handed and my friends whose mother tongue is Germanhave no knowledge of this word. >
    In Oxford German-English Dictionary I found a word 'Zipfel', which translates to 'tip' (of a twig, tail, etc.). But in German-Serbian Encyclopaedia Dictionary besides this meaning, there's also a translation 'thick-head', or 'buffoon' (roughly). This seems as a possible case of misspelling, because letters 'p' and 'f' might look alike in handwriting, a sample of which I don't have, but someone else might.

    /sidetrack

  17. #17

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    I have been engaged in internet discussion since the early days of Usenet. What I eventually learned is that taking a light touch when people are "wrong" and mostly just letting their wrongness be wrong without getting into arguments tends to work just fine. People who are less experienced generally do surprisingly well at distinguishing wisdom from bluster, even without a lot of push-back on the bluster.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    I believe, and certainly my experience, is great frustration arises where psychological trickery appears involved, rather than the matters actually posted. Particularly, pretending to believe a given thing (because if gives apparent discrediting of the disliked person), or posting untruths to get reaction.

    In some cases and I leave off entirely as to specific cases, I speak in general, individuals are skilled at choosing points to dispute or create where many readers will not be able to discern as you say.

    And we do want Basenotes DIY to be a good place for people to learn.

    Genuine discussion on whether materials do given things or not and how they are used absolutely can have differing opinions, no problem whatsoever. There is also misinformation which may be clearly corrected exactly as you say, and all can discern for themselves it would seem. And then there are cases where things go rapidly down the drain, apparently by design of one or both parties, as it's not really misinformation, but disinformation and/or part of a ploy, and never actually driven by the content, but for desired (and bad) effect.

    The CoC is really clear so none of this is necessary at all.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    These are very good points, Bill, with which I very much agree. My sense is that people do, however, also succeed surprisingly well at detecting disingenuous narrative, even in the absence of extensive substantive knowledge or experience.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    In very many cases I agree. That is why I handle a lot of such problems simply with the Ignore button and trusting that whatever there may be, each can judge for himself or herself, and even where subject matter may be such that most may not be able to judge -- for example, getting very technical in something that isn't part of perfuming per se and most would have no experience -- hopefully people will recognize patterns and motives with time.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    Exactly. Paying attention over time almost always reveals who is speaking earnestly with the goal of sharing wisdom, and who has other motives. The main exception is that, unfortunately, true sociopaths are exceedingly good at figuring out what people want to hear and feeding it to them in a long game of deception. But garden variety scammers, pot-stirrers, attention-seekers, fools, and the like always reveal themselves pretty readily.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Since he is a devotee of Perfumers World, another discredited place to go to learn what will need to be unlearned, one would fully expect to throw your money away.

    For a person who continually disclaimed to be a Perfumer here on BN, and now wants to teach a "Master class".
    For a person who wants to call me on my house phone to simply issue a threat to beat me up.

    He does not belong to the world of Perfumery that values the safety of their customer.

    What is in his mind needs to stay there, instead of being deposited into someone else's.
    Lol. I'm a person who fully appreciates directness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bkkorn View Post
    If you 2 got into a fight, ...I'd put my money on you.
    I've seen your vids bro. They're very helpful to people, especially those just starting out. I've been working with my materials for almost a month now and just from USING THEM, documenting everything I'm doing and weighing everything while keeping notes has helped me immensely. It's beginning to click now.

    I've had blunders and learned from those mistakes already. I'm sure I'll make more, but they will be more thoughtful mistakes that I'll also learn from. I have no qualms about people taking classes from other experienced people as long as they are legit.

    As for me, I prefer to lone-wolf it and while it may cost me some time, money and material, I learn BEST this way.
    Currently wearing: Pancaldi by Hanorah

  23. #23

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    Ooooh, Mike and Bill, that's all very vague and mysterious. Are we talking members long gone or existing members...?

    I must be a gullible prick because I can't say I've noticed anyone being fraudulent in this section of the forum but perhaps I haven't been reading it enough. I think most are just beginning or have been at it for a relatively short time so I expect folk to over reach and try to advise when they probably don't quite have the experience to do so but that's cool if they want to try. I have no problem with that because it's the internet and only a fool would take every little detail as gospel without first crosschecking.

    As for any bigger plans or hidden agendas - way over my head.

    But, back to threats and fighting - isn't there a website where you can input two names and see who wins a fight? Can't find anything similar but my Google Fu is weak at the moment.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    Also, going to Bill's tale of the Bach punch-up, I couldn't help but think of the way in which The Libertines had that weird fight on stage - started with a dirty glare and escalated to a kick up the arse and so on, all mid performance with guitars slung around their necks.

    Bloody funny stuff as I'm sure the Bach fight was if you were an onlooker.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quay Limey View Post
    Ooooh, Mike and Bill, that's all very vague and mysterious. Are we talking members long gone or existing members...?
    I am reminded:

    すばらしいチンチンもの
    きんたまのかめある
    それのおとサルボボ
    いいえ!にんじゃがいます

    Hey hey let's go けんかする
    たいせつなもの protect my balls!
    ぼくがわるい so let's fighting...
    Let's fighting love! Let's fighting love!

    このうたちょっとばか
    わけがわからない
    えいごがめちゃくちゃ
    だいじょうぶ, we do it all the time!

    Hey hey let's go けんかする
    たいせつなもの protect my balls!
    ぼくがわるい so let's fighting...
    Let's fighting love! Let's fighting love!



    -

    Except, let's not!

    But if any do anyway, seems like fine advice.

  26. #26
    Wearing Perfume Right Now
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    Default Re: Matt Meleg fragrance course.

    It feels like this thread has run its course, and I have to be on the road for a couple hours and wouldn't want to leave it for another mod to deal with, so I'm closing it.




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