A question about Fruit Sec 184078D

[Quay Limey]

A couple of questions, actually.

I know it’s had various incarnations over the years but has anyone used the titular version and had clouding issues?

Also, what’s the shelf life of this material - does it contain naturals or something prone to early decomposition?

After 10 days in the blend I’m getting small particles and cloudy stuff when swirling. I know I can simply partition/scoop and/or filter but I’m always loath to do so just in case something is contributing to the overall smell.

On the last point I seem to remember someone on this forum claiming that anything that drops out of solution after a given period is more than likely irrelevant to the final aroma and can comfortably be removed. True or not...?

[Bill Roberts]

Well that is my opinion!

(And also I have never found differently. It is however conceivable that a material might have very poor ethanol solubility, so much so as to not remain all dissolved in an EDT-strength formulation when at its intended odor strength, and some odor could be lost. But I wouldn't know what.)

[filipeleira]

I've had solubility problems diluting at 10% in DPG/Ethanol, but 1% is fine.. Info from Pell Wall website:

The manufacturer advises that the blend should be shaken prior to use to ensure an even consistency.

According to Ventós, quality is guaranteed up to 9 months, after this time quality must be checked before use.
The key ingredient of this base is Dimethyl Benzyl Carbinyl Butyrate, I had a bottle that spoiled after one year..
You really should remove any insoluble/solid particles from your solution.

[Quay Limey]

Well that is my opinion!

My apologies; I couldn't recall who it was that claimed that.

Weirdly, I recently mucked about with a homemade vanilla tincture in a rum accord and if I put it in before the end of the blend (pre-worked and blended over and over to perfect so by the numbers, so to speak) it would gather at the bottom of the beaker as a sticky residue. Last material in and it blended just fine with a little swirl and gentle heat.

My point? There was, in that instance, a noticeably lacked the woodier aspects of the vanilla tincture without the stuff that stuck to the bottom. I wish I'd paid more attention in chemistry some days so I knew why that happened, though it's not a problem as I sorted through repeat experiments. I guess a "real" perfumer would know in advance that it would happen and avoid the situation completely.

[Quay Limey]

I've had solubility problems diluting at 10% in DPG/Ethanol, but 1% is fine.. Info from Pell Wall website:



According to Ventós, quality is guaranteed up to 9 months, after this time quality must be checked before use.
The key ingredient of this base is Dimethyl Benzyl Carbinyl Butyrate, I had a bottle that spoiled after one year..
You really should remove any insoluble/solid particles from your solution.

Yes, I noticed the Ventos page about the 9 months - seemed a bit short for that material. And yeah, anything that clouds and doesn't clear after a few days will be filtered or "scooped" before going any further.

I have some DMBCB and had it over a year and used it a few days ago and seemed fine, though it is kept very cool. When you say "off" how would you describe that - shitty or what?

[Bill Roberts]

I believe you do want to let everything get all the way to final dilution in alcohol, with opportunity to fully dissolve in that, before filtering out.

That would be consistent with your above finding.

Where one may not quite get to do that, or not at all, is with resin or the like that you just can't get a uniform suspension with, so you can't possibly dispense evenly.

As a case in point, only very recently I received some Oud Resin, and it was not easy to get into alcohol. I did get it greatly broken down and achieved fine odor strength in the alcohol, but I expect there is still odor strength left in the undissolved parts, and if I had been able to carry everything over into the final formula before filtering, maybe I would have done better. But I would then have been using an irreproducible amount of the stuff. What percent solid, what percent alcohol? There would be no telling.

I just saved the sold remainder and will see if I can do something for fun with it later.

[Quay Limey]

I believe you do want to let everything get all the way to final dilution in alcohol, with opportunity to fully dissolve in that, before filtering out.

I'll give it another week and then stick the blend in some alcohol and see if it clears out. Never had anything that sticks around for over week and doesn't clear so all new to me.

As for this Fruit Sec stuff (new to me last month), I'm now trying to find the SDS to see when Pell Wall obtained it and whether it's potentially expired before I had a chance to use it. Smells okay but I have no reference.

[Bill Roberts]

Warmth and stirring, or even better sonication, are friends for getting materials dissolved. Sitting can work too but is far slower.

[Quay Limey]

I have an auto stirrer on order after seeing one in action before xmas, so that's gonna be fun. But agree with the heat - if I ever get any cloudiness in a blend i.e. sometimes tobacco absolute goes a little cloudy - I always stick the test bottle next to a gentle heat source and swirl every hour or so until it clears - usually the next day though sometimes two. Never any persistent residue, though.

I have a feeling this bloody stuff is off, though I can't say that the smell or its effect on the blend is unpleasant, opposite in fact; it's smells absolutely divine and very addictive. Dark fermented fruits...

[Quay Limey]

Okay, probable explanation is what Filipeleira suggests - short shelf life. The Firmenich product PDF says 6 months, so it's probably fucked.

Better get in contact with Pell Wall, I suppose.

Thanks, guys.

[chyprefresh]

Interesting

I think another reason the small bits don't affect the aroma that much is because they don't macerate with the liquids and oils very well, and I think also because the small bits never make it through an atomizer.

[pkiler]

I only have older Fruit Sec, never had any problems... yet.

[Quay Limey]

When you say "problems" do you mean no clouding/particles or no problem with the shelf life?

[Quay Limey]

Quick update for anyone that's remotely interested - it was clear this morning. I don't have a clue why it took so long to do so.

Happy days!