Code of Conduct
Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Iris note

  1. #1

    Default Iris note

    Hey does anyone have a recommendation for creating a nice iris note (like in Dior Homme Intense, BDK Gris Charnel etc.)?

  2. #2

  3. #3

    Default Re: Iris note

    On the general question, IMO "iris" and "orris" should mean different things.

    The latter referring to the root, and the former to the flower.

    Whether fragrance writers and marketing people actually make the distinction, though, I don't know. It has seemed not.

    Very good thread linked by Sniffita, certainly!

    There seem not a lot of threads here on iris, as opposed to orris. In a quick search I really only found myself talking to myself, https://www.basenotes.net/threads/48...ired-fragrance . It really may be the case that "iris" from the writers putting out reviews and fragrance pyramids always does mean "orris," which if true would explain the lack of conversation on iris accords.

    There is Iris Abs Synth 184031 available from PSH, on which I can't comment other than mentioning existence.

    From the SDS it is to me an orris recon, not a fresh flower recon. So I guess that is Firmenich telling me I am wrong on terminology.

    As Emily Littela used to say, "Nevermind."

    Edit: For fun and possibly informational value, here's what the SDS has to say about Iris Abs Synth 184031 (the exact alpha-isomethyl ionone figure is from the fragrance allergen statement):

    Alpha irone: 60-70%
    Alpha-isomethyl ionone: 2.5794%
    Alpha-methyl ionone: 2.5-5%
    Nerolidol: 0.1 - 0.5%
    Methyl undecyl ketone: 0.1-0.5%
    Beta-methyl ionone: 0.1--0.5%
    Linalool: 0.1-0.5%
    9-Undecenal (Adoxal): 0.1-0.5%
    Beta-damascenone: <0.1%

    There remains about 18-34% materials which are unidentified.

    There is also Iris Abs 000199SA which has a little different composition and if interested, web page is here.

    And FWIW, Fragrantica says of Iris:

    Odor profile: A natural iris (iris root) note is earthy, woody, powdery, reminiscent of boiled carrot. A fantasy iris note is a powdery floral, reminiscent of the violet flower.
    and of Orris:

    Odor profile: A powdery earthy rooty scent, with woody, violet flower nuances.
    Again, for what value any may place on that.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 25th January 2021 at 07:11 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Iris note

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Ou View Post
    Hey does anyone have a recommendation for creating a nice iris note (like in Dior Homme Intense, BDK Gris Charnel etc.)?
    I'm attempting to make some violet/orris accords in the near future, I have limited knowledge so don't take anything I've said as fact or direction, but I can share my thoughts and notes. I've smelled pre-made violet/iris accords that smell very similar to DHI and DHP, so I have a direction similar to yours.

    As of now the materials I've attempted to blend are, a-ionone, b-ionone, ethylene brassylate and coumarin, this ends up smelling nothing like iris, but is a dry powdery woody smell, it's lacking any real floral character. I noticed in the premade accord that I have it is very floral and sweet, and that after being pointed out that carrot seed oil is used in some accords, it did make me realize that this premade accord smells like carrots.

    After reading about it I realized the importance of Methyl Ionone, it seems to be what I should be starting with. I figure this can be tweaked many different ways: powdery, woody, sweet, fresh depending on the kind of violet you'd like.

    The ingredients and notes on my to-do list are:

    Orris/Violet_______

    N-Methyl-Ionone Group (Each contains different chemical structure - isomers)

    Isoraldeine® 95 (Givaudan)
    Isoraldeine® 70 (Givaudan)
    Methyl Ionone Gamma (Coeur) (IFF)

    Ionones
    a-Ionone
    b-Ionone
    Dihydro Ionone Beta (Givaudan)

    Irone
    Irone Alpha

    Extras
    Cucumber Extract/Aldehyde (I've found two kinds: trans-2-cis-6-nonadienal (Pell Wall - Cucumber Aldehyde 1%) & trans-2-Noneal (Perfumer's Apprentice -Cucumber Extract) - I'm thinking this could account for some of the "cucumber" in Santal 33, just a guess.
    Carrot Seed - India**

    Powder Stuff
    Heliotropin Replacer 20%
    Coumarin

    I'd likely try to sit this in some musk and Virginia cedar, but I digress.

    The other aspect which I'm not sure I'm trying to create is the green aspect that comes from violet leaves, perhaps it will be another direction I'll attempt in future ...
    Perfumer wannabe, noob sauce.

  5. #5
    Basenotes Junkie
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Saint Augustine
    Posts
    662

    Default Re: Iris note

    Strange I was thinking of starting a thread, I’m going to piggyback on this one - but if I’m wrong , tell me I’ll post my own.
    Pandemic has me running into stores, grabbing testers, and running to my car to sniff- generally I am not thrilled(just me) and I have several times now, stacked the 5-8 samples together and left it. What happens is they meld- and what results is much more interesting than the original. What really fascinates me is this floral drydown that is powdery in a way that is elegant and diffusive. I moan about how I don’t like powdery- but this I love- and it lasts months. So I bought everything alpha irone , iralia, boisiris. I have alpha ionone, methyl ionones, various orris roots, various irone count. Nothing on its own hints at the longevity or the elegance. I have taken to adding small amounts of many, but there is no hint of the effect I get off the commercial blotter samples. So my question was going to be - is it possible it is an overdose requirement? Or isit specific pairing of materials? Sometimes it is hard to know if any have the answer and have a requirement for giving it up or if any even understand what I am asking...lol

  6. #6

    Default Re: Iris note

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolieo View Post
    Strange I was thinking of starting a thread, I’m going to piggyback on this one - but if I’m wrong , tell me I’ll post my own.
    Pandemic has me running into stores, grabbing testers, and running to my car to sniff- generally I am not thrilled(just me) and I have several times now, stacked the 5-8 samples together and left it. What happens is they meld- and what results is much more interesting than the original. What really fascinates me is this floral drydown that is powdery in a way that is elegant and diffusive. I moan about how I don’t like powdery- but this I love- and it lasts months. So I bought everything alpha irone , iralia, boisiris. I have alpha ionone, methyl ionones, various orris roots, various irone count. Nothing on its own hints at the longevity or the elegance. I have taken to adding small amounts of many, but there is no hint of the effect I get off the commercial blotter samples. So my question was going to be - is it possible it is an overdose requirement? Or isit specific pairing of materials? Sometimes it is hard to know if any have the answer and have a requirement for giving it up or if any even understand what I am asking...lol
    What samples are you trying?
    Perfumer wannabe, noob sauce.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Iris note

    The longest lasting powdery floral molecules I don't think are any ionones, irones, or orris/iris extracts. The floral molecules that last super long on test strips & are powdery in my experience are lyral, phenyl hexanol (not super duper powdery tho), and hydroxycitronellal and lyral schiff bases with methyl anthranilate. But you can probably get a long lasting powdery floral drydown with an accord of separate floral & powdery molecules (like maybe a very low dose of a "super amber" or evernyl).

  8. #8

    Default Re: Iris note

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    On the general question, IMO "iris" and "orris" should mean different things.

    The latter referring to the root, and the former to the flower.

    Whether fragrance writers and marketing people actually make the distinction, though, I don't know. It has seemed not.
    (snipped for brevity)

    It sounds like a good rule, but the terms aren't used that way IMO. I think it would be safer to assume that in a perfumery (as opposed, say, to a florist) context, "iris" as well as "orris" means the root. If you want to talk about the flower, say "iris flower". This is because the flower hasn't been a common topic: neither a source for extraction nor a characteristic scent for imitation.

    Some observations from Basenoters about the scent of the flower:

    "Some of the older varieties of the tall bearded English Iris (Iris germanica) have deliciously scented flowers - they are the blue & purple ones with very large but fragile flowers - scent is slightly sherbert/fizzy/powdery/plummy /sorry can't describe it (but you need to bury your nose)!
    Have grown I. florentina & couldn't really notice much scent in the flowers." (lpp)

    "Irises the flowers smell nothing like iris the fragrance note. They have a fruity, plummy, grape-pop quality like jasmine with the fruit turned on high." (Sugarandaraja)

    https://www.basenotes.net/threads/24...lly-smell-like

  9. #9
    Basenotes Junkie

    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    parma
    Posts
    733

    Default Re: Iris note

    Iris Germanica flowers: those of my parts (northern Italy) have a very subtle scent of : honey, greenery and something chocolate / vetiver ...

  10. #10

    Default Re: Iris note

    Thank you, Alysoun! And Geco!

  11. #11
    Basenotes Junkie
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Saint Augustine
    Posts
    662

    Default Re: Iris note

    This is fun! The samples , Michael, were from Tom Ford , Jo Malone and Creed ( November my daughter tells me) tf: tabac vanille, lost cherry, champacca one, neroli portofino,santal blush( forgot whole name Jm:velvet rose,dark amber and ginger lily, Creed: green Irish tweed.
    They smelt of very strong irone together, for weeks and weeks wafting all over the porch, smell them apart -meh, bits and pieces. It wasn’t floral- not like any rose, lilac,jasmin,chamomile,ad infinity. It smelled of elegant , expensive perfume- right there with no intrusiveness, big without brashness or harshness.
    Of course I identify it as irone or ionones, but whatever it was came from an unintended mix so. Just a thought.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Iris note

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolieo View Post
    This is fun! The samples , Michael, were from Tom Ford , Jo Malone and Creed ( November my daughter tells me) tf: tabac vanille, lost cherry, champacca one, neroli portofino,santal blush( forgot whole name Jm:velvet rose,dark amber and ginger lily, Creed: green Irish tweed.
    They smelt of very strong irone together, for weeks and weeks wafting all over the porch, smell them apart -meh, bits and pieces. It wasn’t floral- not like any rose, lilac,jasmin,chamomile,ad infinity. It smelled of elegant , expensive perfume- right there with no intrusiveness, big without brashness or harshness.
    Of course I identify it as irone or ionones, but whatever it was came from an unintended mix so. Just a thought.
    Aldehydes seem to make an accord scream out and last a bit longer when blended with base notes.

    Here's a violet accord from a perfume textbook :

    a-ionone 55
    b-ionone 85
    gamma-methyl ionone 85
    aldehyde C12, 10% 9
    Anisaldehyde 17
    Jasmine Base 20
    Benzyl iso-eugenol 10% 100
    Helitropine, 20% 9
    Musk T 9
    PEA 14
    Linalool 10
    Linalyl Acetate 10
    Methyl Nonylenate 10% 40
    Benzyl acetate 20

    Extension of skeleton formula

    Benzyl iso-eugenol, 10% 39
    Eugenol 3
    Phenylethyl acetate 4
    Vanillin 10% 15
    Lyrall 15

    Top notes; Bergamot, mimosa
    Mid: Guaiacwood, rose, violet leaf, ylang ylang
    base: benzoin, sandalwood, vetiver
    Perfumer wannabe, noob sauce.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Iris note

    Quote Originally Posted by Geco View Post
    Iris Germanica flowers: those of my parts (northern Italy) have a very subtle scent of : honey, greenery and something chocolate / vetiver ...
    In my opinion, the scent of blooming iris flowers is not unique and, in some way, not very characteristic.
    Many iris don't have any smell. The ones which smell, they smell different depending on the variety, sometimes sweeter, sometimes greener, sometimes a bit spicy.
    There are many different roses, but if you smell a rose, with eyes closed, you will say it's a rose. If you smell a plant of blooming muguets, you will say it's muguet.
    I am not sure you could always say it's an iris, just smelling it.
    I think when people talk of iris in perfumery, that always refers to orris. In italian we don't even have a word for sayng orris. If wanting to make a distinction, we should say "rizoma di iris", but we simply say iris.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Iris note

    I read an interesting article, not long ago, about aromatic compounds that have been detected in iris fllowers scent.
    I will post it, if am able to find it again.

  15. #15
    Basenotes Junkie
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Saint Augustine
    Posts
    662

    Default Re: Iris note

    But some things have an effect- so the smell of something that is pure or beautiful is one thing- but I strive for effect as a perfumer, and some effects are more sublime than others. There seems to be so many paths to a smell, but an effect seems to respond to narrow circumstance. What I have been trying to describe is an effect: there is an aroma-but it is the diffusion and the longevity and strength that make it worth mentioning.
    When I go on about certain naturals- it is the effect they have on me that I am going on about- it is a multi layered affair, complex. Perhaps an unfolding. I have no clue whether mere mortals can achieve it through hit or miss trials. I wonder what books the big perfume houses have- even if they are now limited in so many ways- cost, ifra,eu. I believe captives might give them a little that they lost, but not what is in all those notes. It might be similar to what the Catholic Church has in the Vatican, oodles of notes and observations from all those perfumers.sigh.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Iris note

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6540295/

    That is the articles about components of iris flower scent. Hope it can be useful

  17. #17

    Default Re: Iris note

    Thank you. I had read this before but your reposting caused me to pay particular attention to this table, which I had not before -- one needs to have it opened as a new window and have it full screen to really get anything from it, and I didn't do that:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...ort=objectonly

    It would have been nicer if the article had said more about the individual cultivars -- were any of them of no particular scent, while others were? I couldn't tell -- but even so, it truly seems that as said, there is no particular iris flower odor profile, not remotely.

    Other than linalool, the chart shows really not one compound broadly shared in major if any amount by most, and those that are fairly common tend often to be in low amount and often are fairly generic to florals anyway. E.g., linalool is common, much if any present half the time maybe, and sometimes is in good amount, but having linalool in one's perfume will hardly itself suggest iris flower.

    So there are materials which are characteristic of certain cultivars, e.g. as posted before methyl cinnamate, caryophyllene, thujopsene, isosafrole, and β-cedrene, the last three of which I don't have so can't say personally. But if a person has smelled only irises not containing a given one of those, then I suppose that compound might not seem characteristic of iris flower to that person.

    While to suggest a given cultivar, one might wish substantial amounts selected from such as linalool, farnesol, geraniol, alpha-pinene, nerolidol, dimethyl octanol (tetrahydrogeraniol), fenchole, and methyl anthranilate.

    But on a common iris flower backbone, there doesn't seem to be one.

    Myself, I believe the iris flowers of my childhood had methyl cinnamate, caryophyllene, linalool, a piney element, an ethyl myristate like component, it seems like maybe nerolidol and maybe farnesol, certainly not a full recon there but what seems to me. But from the study, another scented iris might have few if any of these in appreciable if any amount.

    Just to add to the above a specific example from the study, a partial comparison between two differing cultivars:

    "Dash Away" vs "Brassie"

    Combined linalool and linalyl acetate: 56.6% vs 4.4%
    Thujopsene: 7.6% vs 0.9%
    Dimethyl octanol: 4.1% vs 0%
    Combined citronellol and nerol: 0.0% vs 48.8%
    3-Carene: 0% vs 9.2%
    Alpha-pinene: 0% vs 2.8%
    Methyl cinnamate: 0% vs 2.4%


    Neither has any caryophyllene, which can be as high as 54% in other cultivars, or β-cedrene, which can be as high as 29% in others.

    EDIT -- I'm a little slow on the uptake. I observed just now that Iris 1 was by far the most interesting and distinctive, going from what was detected:

    Picture6.jpg

    And what is it? Wild Iris germanica.

    It's got everything one could call very distinctive, and in important or great levels: Methyl Cinnamate 34%, Isosafrole 21%, Safrole 6%, Farnesol 5.3%, Thujopsene 2.5%, Geranyl Acetone 1.6%, Verbenone 0.9%, Menthol 0.8%, even Safranal 0.5%!

    So it seems that the cultivars have the wild odor bred out, for the most part! Well that explains a lot.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 27th January 2021 at 02:31 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Iris note

    Sadly in terms of literally reproducing that in perfume, besides isosafrole and safrole probably being unobtainium*:

    Safrole as such should not be used as a fragrance ingredient; essential oils containing safrole should not be used at a level such that the total concentration of safrole exceeds 0.01% in consumer products. Examples of essential oils with a high safrole content are Sassafras oil (Sassafras officinale Nees& Eberm.), Ocotea Cymbarum oil (Ocotea pretiosa Metz) and certain qualities of Camphor oils. The total concentration of safrole, isosafrole and dihydrosafrole should not exceed 0.01% in consumer products.
    And that's 27% of the headspace.

    Safranal is heavily restricted too of course.

    * Apparently there are Canadian sellers of sassafras oil on Etsy, though. Hopefully essential oil rather than fragrance oil, but I don't know. However in the US, the DEA has safrole on the precursor naughty list so there may be no retail sellers, and importation potentially might be frowned upon. There is sassafras root bark powder available in the US, though. Second source here.

    Apparently safrole is considered carcinogenic and thus sassafras root bark is no longer used for root beer, as it used to be. Funny, cancer did not seem to be a big thing, not compared to now, back in the days when people drank lots of real root beer and sassafras tea. Maybe they didn't pick so well on what to ban?




Similar Threads

  1. What note is iris?
    By Richard716 in forum Fragrance DIY
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 21st May 2019, 06:01 AM
  2. NEW: Sinfonia di Note - Soffio d'Iris!
    By hednic in forum General Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 17th September 2017, 07:59 AM
  3. About the note iris..
    By The_Cologneist in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 11th March 2014, 08:51 PM
  4. IRIS Note in a protagonist role.
    By magnus611 in forum General Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 18th December 2013, 07:20 PM
  5. The Iris Note Pour Homme.
    By N_Tesla in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 14th October 2010, 08:11 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Loving perfume on the Internet since 2000