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  1. #1

    Default Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Hi

    Just wanted some feedback on this idea for a fairly basic fougere. I haven't made it yet. It's just for me, so I'm not concerned with IFRA.

    I've kept lavender geranium fairly low, as per my personal preference. Is leaving bergamot out too controversial?

    What is a sensible amount of oakmoss? I'm talking purely from a scent point of view. Guidance online seems clouded by regulations. I'm using IFRA compliant oakmoss from Pell Wall, which reviewers say is less cloying than the non-compliant kind.

    I know this is a lot of coumarin. Too much perhaps? And would you add more amyl salicylate?

    Note Parts per 1000 % of Conc
    Patchouli 61 _ 6.10%
    Lavender 30 _ 3.05%
    Clary Sage 30 _ 3.05%
    Oakmoss 15 _ 1.52%
    Habanolide 61 _ 6.10%
    Coumarin 122 _ 12.20%
    Vetiver 91 _ 9.15%
    Lyral 91 _ 9.15%
    Timbersilk 122 _ 12.20%
    Dihydro Beta ionone 61 _ 6.10%
    Pettitgrain 30 _ 3.05%
    Geranium 30 _ 3.05%
    Ethylene Brassylate 30 _ 3.05%
    Sclareolate 91 _ 9.15%
    Hedione 61 _ 6.10%
    Ambroxan 9 _ 0.91%
    Cedramber 30 _ 3.05%
    Amyl Salycilate 30 _ 3.05%

    Any advice gratefully received! Thanks.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Not at all controversial to leave out bergamot.

    My idea of sensible Oak Moss is the John Steele at 80 parts per thousand, so I suppose no one should listen to me on Oak Moss.

    Some geranyl acetate might help and it seems shy on lavender but you did say that's your preference. Do you have a good number of lavenders to choose from?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    uh, yeah, way too much coumarin, it will take over. you can cut down to 3% with ease.
    The bergamot is there for diffusion, see if it is better with some...
    Also, seems rather shy for the top end.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Depends obvs on your specific patchouli & geranium materials, but those are very large doses of what are arguably the two highest impact materials in your blend. In my experience exploring the fougère structure, closer to 1% for geranium eo & less than 1% for patchouli eo were plenty.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Gawrsh, I hope the 130 parts Geranium Terpeneless in something recent wasn't a disaster then!

    (The Terpeneless is much "cleaner" though.)

  6. #6

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Oh, and be careful with your amyl salicylate. Depending on dose & quality of your material, you can get a super screechy harsh facet that pops up as the stronger heart materials fade. Don't cheap out on crappy amyl salicylate is a lesson I learned the hard way.

    ETA: Also, I think that is a lot of lyral. And this is coming from someone who loves lyral. In my fougère experiments, even just 1-2% lyral provided a very discernable muguet facet to the extended drydown. Looking at your formula, the longest lasting materials contributing to the extended drydown will be the lyral, musks, and ambroxan. But maybe that is what you are looking for!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Gawrsh, I hope the 130 parts Geranium Terpeneless in something recent wasn't a disaster then!

    (The Terpeneless is much "cleaner" though.)
    Interesting! The terpenes are the most volatile highest impact components, correct?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Which did you prefer and which not?

    The three I see available retail in the US right now, if accompanying SDS's actually do match product, are the Givaudan, the Vigon Mixed Isomers, and the John D Walsh, manufacturer undisclosed. The Vigon indeed is cheap, dropping to as low as $8/kg in true bulk, but was it your culprit?

    ?

    Thank you!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Which did you prefer and which not?

    The three I see available retail in the US right now, if accompanying SDS's actually do match product, are the Givaudan, the Vigon Mixed Isomers, and the John D Walsh, manufacturer undisclosed. The Vigon indeed is cheap, dropping to as low as $8/kg in true bulk, but was it your culprit?

    ?

    Thank you!
    I think you are asking about amyl salicylate? I got one from PA that was more "screechy" like this, and one from PW that I liked. I don't know where they each source the material.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    uh, yeah, way too much coumarin, it will take over. you can cut down to 3% with ease.
    The bergamot is there for diffusion, see if it is better with some...
    Also, seems rather shy for the top end.
    In my experiments with the fougère structure a nice way to invigorate the top end is with a very low dose of methyl salicylate, just right at the threshold of individual discernability in the blend (like ~0.05%).

  11. #11

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Quote Originally Posted by mnitabach View Post
    Interesting! The terpenes are the most volatile highest impact components, correct?
    I would think so but the note or notes I'm glad are absent are I think not terpenes. Perhaps the product should be called fractionated geranium, but Terpeneless is what it's called.

    The SDS gives an imprecise but useful analysis: https://perfumersupplyhouse.com/wp-c...ENELESS-EN.pdf

    In contrast my most-preferred Geranium as the full oil is this: https://www.edenbotanicals.com/produ...nic_COA_15.pdf

    The thing is, the eo doesn't have much percentage of terpenes at all.

    It does have a whole host of things under 0.5% not seen in the Terpeneless even though that goes down to 0.1% and does not seem limited to mandatory-to-report items.

    So I dunno. But, very different.

    .

  12. #12

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Quote Originally Posted by mnitabach View Post
    I think you are asking about amyl salicylate? I got one from PA that was more "screechy" like this, and one from PW that I liked. I don't know where they each source the material.
    Thank you!

    The PA purports to be the Givaudan. Whether it is or not is of course another matter entirely. That is what I have myself, and I have never liked it. It looks as if I need to try one or two others then.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Thanks all. Ok, will take coumarin back down and add bergamot to boost the top. Need no further encouragement to reduce the geranium. I could add geranyl acetate, but I can't smell it, or it smells like PVA glue to me. I guess I'm anosmic to it.

    I only have one type of lavender, but I have three patchoulis - standard eo, coeur and clearwood.

    Ok, I will watch out for the amyl salicylate. It's on its way. I may have cheaped out. Hadn't occured to me that it might be different.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    I could add rosewood to the top. That might work.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    It seems Linalool 50, meaning 5%, (or L-linalool 50) is quite commonly a good idea for a formula, and Rosewood does much the same.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuri-G View Post
    Thanks all. Ok, will take coumarin back down and add bergamot to boost the top. Need no further encouragement to reduce the geranium. I could add geranyl acetate, but I can't smell it, or it smells like PVA glue to me. I guess I'm anosmic to it.
    No reason to add then, too much guesswork, except maybe to make a version at the end if you have testers and can ask which formula they like better.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Sounds like time to make it! I have almost everything you include, so will give it a try as well.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Some months ago I was happy to come up with this fougere type fragrance I would like to share with you. I have to say that I am still learning and training every day and I would not do it the same way now. Maybe I give it a rework at some point. And yes, it is heavy on the oakmoss which could possibly be reduced (a bit). Any critics is very welcome!


    Bergamot EO bergapten free 15.7%
    Hedione 15.1
    Alpha Methyl Ionone 9.9
    Kephalis 7.9
    Neroli Commercial 5.8
    Lavender Absolute (France) 5.4
    Beta Caryophyllene 5.1
    Iso E Super 4.2
    Timbersilk 4.2
    Oakmoss Abs. IFRA compliant 3.7
    Ethylene Brassylate 3.7
    Eugenol 3
    Lavender 40/42 2.9
    Rose 217 Givco 2.2
    Hydroxicitronellal 1.7
    Citronellol 1.7
    Clearwood 1.5
    Cedar Atlas EO 1.2
    Jasmin Abs. Recr. 1.2
    Coumarin 1.1
    Vetiver Acetate 1.1
    Mayol 1.1
    Fixateur 505 E 0.6

  19. #19

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Quote Originally Posted by mnitabach View Post
    Sounds like time to make it! I have almost everything you include, so will give it a try as well.
    Hopefully this weekend, if the amyl salicylate arrives.

    Thanks for your help everyone. Here's the tweaked formula based on your advice.

    Note Parts per 1000 % of Conc
    Patchouli 33 3.32%
    Lavender 33 3.32%
    Clary Sage 33 3.32%
    Oakmoss 17 1.66%
    Habanolide 66 6.64%
    Coumarin 33 3.32%
    Vetiver 100 9.97%
    Lyral 33 3.32%
    Timbersilk 133 13.29%
    Dihydro Beta ionone 66 6.64%
    Pettitgrain 66 6.64%
    Geranium 10 1.00%
    Ethylene Brassylate 33 3.32%
    Sclareolate 100 9.97%
    Hedione 66 6.64%
    Ambroxan 10 1.00%
    Cedramber 33 3.32%
    Amyl Salycilate 33 3.32%
    Rosewood 33 3.32%
    Bergamot 66 6.64%

  20. #20

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Quote Originally Posted by tobacco View Post
    Some months ago I was happy to come up with this fougere type fragrance I would like to share with you. I have to say that I am still learning and training every day and I would not do it the same way now. Maybe I give it a rework at some point. And yes, it is heavy on the oakmoss which could possibly be reduced (a bit). Any critics is very welcome!


    Bergamot EO bergapten free 15.7%
    Hedione 15.1
    Alpha Methyl Ionone 9.9
    Kephalis 7.9
    Neroli Commercial 5.8
    Lavender Absolute (France) 5.4
    Beta Caryophyllene 5.1
    Iso E Super 4.2
    Timbersilk 4.2
    Oakmoss Abs. IFRA compliant 3.7
    Ethylene Brassylate 3.7
    Eugenol 3
    Lavender 40/42 2.9
    Rose 217 Givco 2.2
    Hydroxicitronellal 1.7
    Citronellol 1.7
    Clearwood 1.5
    Cedar Atlas EO 1.2
    Jasmin Abs. Recr. 1.2
    Coumarin 1.1
    Vetiver Acetate 1.1
    Mayol 1.1
    Fixateur 505 E 0.6
    Useful for comparison, thanks! You have a few more materials than I do. I'll leave it to the experts to assess!

    I just googled lavender 40/42. How does that compare with a standard EO, which is what I'm using? It seems a bit harsh at the top, which is why I don't like using too much.

    I tried a mini accord using habanolide and that worked well. I decided to add a warmer musk to compliment it and have opted for ethylene brassylate, as you have.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    I don't consider it the smoothest or best but it is standardized and perhaps especially useful commercially for that reason.

    I really don't think there's such a thing as a "standard" lavender, other than if calling 40/42 that. Lavenders vary a great deal, which is why I asked how many you had. It might be that with another lavender you'd enjoy having more of it.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    I don't consider it the smoothest or best but it is standardized and perhaps especially useful commercially for that reason.

    I really don't think there's such a thing as a "standard" lavender, other than if calling 40/42 that. Lavenders vary a great deal, which is why I asked how many you had. It might be that with another lavender you'd enjoy having more of it.
    I have lavindula augustifolium/officianalis eo. I should pick up some absolute at some point.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuri-G View Post
    Useful for comparison, thanks! You have a few more materials than I do. I'll leave it to the experts to assess!

    I just googled lavender 40/42. How does that compare with a standard EO, which is what I'm using?
    As Mr. Bill Roberts already said it is apparently (not that I would know from a professional point of view) used as a standard lavender in perfumery to give more consistent and constant or predictable results. I have read that the numbers relate to the ratio of linalool (40%) and linalyl acetate (42%), which would leave 18% of other non-standardized lavender constituents.

    Personally I actually like the 40/42, e.g. compared to other purely natural/non-standardized lavender EOs. I think I currently have 5 different in my collection (France, Bulgaria,...) and they are really quite different. Some for the better, some for the worse.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuri-G View Post
    I have lavindula augustifolium/officianalis eo. I should pick up some absolute at some point.
    Do you have any recommendations Bill?

  25. #25

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuri-G View Post
    I have lavindula augustifolium/officianalis eo. I should pick up some absolute at some point.
    Imho the absolute makes the real difference in the fougere. It is much more beautiful than the EO, but not so fresh of course. It is soft, floral, coumarinic lavender and has way more substantivity. A must have!

  26. #26

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Lavender absolute is a wonderful material! It's super different from e.o. in ways mentioned above. In my experience, it's also very powerful, and can crush other heart notes if one isn't careful with dosing & what it is accompanying. Works gorgeously with geranium e.o.!

  27. #27

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuri-G View Post
    Do you have any recommendations Bill?
    For a feminine I am particularly fond of Perfumer's Apprentice Lavender France Maillette (Vielle) and also their Lavender France Fleurs (Robertet), with their Fleurs being lighter and more coumarinic and their Maillette having a bit more depth. Top notch stuff to me.

    Either absolutely can be used in a masculine as well without in any way going metro. It's just that it's going to be light and you're going to need your solid punch elsewhere. Which is of course very doable.

    For a masculine I most prefer PSH Lavender Spanish Pure (Bontoux) and White Lotus Aromatics Lavender Absolute (of course no longer available, does any know who they sourced from? Paul?).

    Btw my wife's view is this (she has smelled them all before but not for some time and forgot):

    Bontoux: Immediately loved and said would wear alone. Said feminine when asked.

    Maillette: Said green and fresh. Not much flower. Went back to Bontoux and decided Bontoux was masculine. Went back to Maillette and said now seemed weak.

    Fleurs: Did not like as much as Maillette.

    Absolute: Hated, with terms such as "cat's ass."

    Bontoux together with Absolute: better than either alone.

    Fleurs with Absolute: good

    Maillette with Absolute: did not like.

    Her favorite by far is the Lavender Spanish (Bontoux.)

    She had more to say than this, particularly negative stuff with regard to the Absolute but that is what I recall.

    Oh wait, she has used the word "skunk" for the Absolute again. And is going wild for the Bontoux, like a cat with catnip, and is asking me to make a cologne with it. Says it should be an essential oil for every woman, makes you feel loved. Says I need to go to a lavender field (has said this before.)

    So I guess Lavender Oil Spanish Pure (Bontoux) is the winner for her? It is my overall favorite as well. But for a light lavender you can use more of, with other things supplying character, those PA French ones are good too.

    Not passing the cut for this "review": LN 40/42, LN Lavender France, PA Lavender Diva, EB Lavender Maillette, and some others no longer in hand but not as good IMO.

    EDIT: While "Bontoux" doesn't appear on the Perfumer Supply House webpage, the Lavender Oil Spanish 100% Pure is this same Lavender. Bontoux is the producer.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 12th February 2021 at 09:45 PM.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    This is awesomely useful! Thanks, Bill!

  29. #29

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    For a feminine I am particularly fond of Perfumer's Apprentice Lavender France Maillette (Vielle) and also their Lavender France Fleurs (Robertet), with their Fleurs being lighter and more coumarinic and their Maillette having a bit more depth. Top notch stuff to me.

    Either absolutely can be used in a masculine as well without in any way going metro. It's just that it's going to be light and you're going to need your solid punch elsewhere. Which is of course very doable.

    For a masculine I most prefer PSH Lavender Spanish (Bontoux) and White Lotus Aromatics Lavender Absolute (of course no longer available, does any know who they sourced from? Paul?).

    Btw my wife's view is this (she has smelled them all before but not for some time and forgot):

    Bontoux: Immediately loved and said would wear alone. Said feminine when asked.

    Maillette: Said green and fresh. Not much flower. Went back to Bontoux and decided Bontoux was masculine. Went back to Maillette and said now seemed weak.

    Fleurs: Did not like as much as Maillette.

    Absolute: Hated, with terms such as "cat's ass."

    Bontoux together with Absolute: better than either alone.

    Fleurs with Absolute: good

    Maillette with Absolute: did not like.

    Her favorite by far is the Lavender Spanish (Bontoux.)

    She had more to say than this, particularly negative stuff with regard to the Absolute but that is what I recall.

    Oh wait, she has used the word "skunk" for the Absolute again. And is going wild for the Bontoux, like a cat with catnip, and is asking me to make a cologne with it. Says it should be an essential oil for every woman, makes you feel loved. Says I need to go to a lavender field (has said this before.)

    So I guess Lavender Oil Spanish (Bontoux) is the winner for her? It is my overall favorite as well. i don't know if Christine can get more. But for a light lavender you can use more of, with other things supplying character, those PA French ones are good too.

    Not passing the cut for this "review": LN 40/42, LN Lavender France, PA Lavender Diva, and some others no longer in hand but not as good IMO.
    Thanks Bill, that's a very comprehensive answer!

  30. #30

    Default Re: Simple fougere formula/oakmoss

    I'm glad you asked Yuri, because your doing so made for some very good home entertainment!

    Btw I have checked and my bottle on which Christine hand wrote Lavender Spanish Bontoux is the same material she offers as Lavender Oil Spanish 100% Pure.




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