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  1. #1

    Default Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Just got some of these geranium materials. Any ideas what to expect as compared to typical geranium eos? Can I use them as a floral heart note? Should be a lot less tenacious than rose or jasmine absolutes, correct?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    I am not the best for talking about what constitutes "heart" vs top or base, but I would call the Terpeneless at the more lasting end of top or the shorter lasting end of mid.

    Certainly much less tenacious than jasmine absolutes.

    Compared to geranium eo's, I feel I can use more, it is more transparent.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Awesome. Thanks! I'm gonna try it tomorrow & I'll report back how it goes.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Agreeing with Bill.
    Using the Terpeneless Geranium, you can use it for the middle, without needing the terpenes in the tops...
    So you can place other top notes in that scent...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    OK this terpeneless geranium is amazing stuff!!! Lately as learning exercises I've been making simple little sketches that have the broad structure of complete perfumes, but with very few materials. So here in ppt is how I tried out the terpeneless geranium, placing it solo as a middle note.

    habanolide 182
    ambrocenide 0.2
    benzyl salicylate 455
    terpeneless geranium 91
    cedrenol 136
    ethyl maltol 0.2
    lime eo 136
    methyl salicylate 1

    The terpeneless geranium is super smooth & rosy, with almost no citrusy aspect at all, so leaves room for the lime on top. But it definitely does make itself known in the top to some extent (but this is a very sparse structure to begin with). I was finding it very difficult to do anything with ordinary geranium that doesn't turn everything into a fougère, but this will be much more versatile. This is bright, but not at all rough or screechy.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    OK this terpeneless geranium is amazing stuff!!! Lately as learning exercises I've been making simple little sketches that have the broad structure of complete perfumes, but with very few materials. So here in ppt is how I tried out the terpeneless geranium, placing it solo as a middle note.

    habanolide 182
    ambrocenide 0.2
    benzyl salicylate 455
    terpeneless geranium 91
    cedrenol 136
    ethyl maltol 0.2
    lime eo 136
    methyl salicylate 1

    The terpeneless geranium is super smooth & rosy, with almost no citrusy aspect at all, so leaves room for the lime on top. But it definitely does make itself known in the top to some extent (but this is a very sparse structure to begin with). I was finding it very difficult to do anything with ordinary geranium that doesn't turn everything into a fougère, but this will be much more versatile. This is bright, but not at all rough or screechy.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    I'm puzzled how you smell benzyl salicylate very well, while most find it faint, yet you use it at exceedingly unusually high percentages.

    I am not saying the result must smell bad to others, and obviously not to you, but if it is right that you are a super sniffer of benzyl salicylate, then if it is also at an extraordinarily high percentage of a fragrance such as 46%, the fragrance may smell entirely different to you than to others. To make an analogy, rather as a plain looking bird apparently could look stunning when able to see it in UV as birds can, your fragrance may be depending on something the rest of us get little from or often, cannot directly smell at all. Not a problem if just for you of course.

    As a suggestion, though, I'd say be sure the fragrance also works with benzyl salicylate limited to such as 50 parts per thousand, or even with none. Unless aiming for a Mellis accord, in which case of course it's inherent to have more.

    I'm glad you like the Geranium Terpeneless! Agreed completely.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    For me, the benzyl sal serves as a pleasant relatively neutral canvas for my experiments, I guess analogous to the commonly used massive hedione-ionone-ies background. For me, the former is a much more pleasant & subdued canvas than the latter. I'm smelling the sketch I posted above on my arm now seven hours after spraying some on, and it smells woody ambery musky on a pleasant balsamic background.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Oh, in that case maybe I misimagined your perception of it!

    Still it's an exceedingly atypical amount. However, some decades ago anyone would be saying that of various usages that are popular now.

    In terms of what amounts are good, history even gets rewritten. I just read some of a blog that was overall not badly informed but claimed Eau Sauvage was 40% Hedione. Isn't the right number something like 2%? But what's a factor of 20 among friends.

    Relevance being, who knows what the next big "background" use will be. Firmenich is pushing for Clearwood, advocating up to 20%. It's "the new Iso-E Super," they say. So I am not saying the usage is wrong, only suggesting that perception by others may vary a lot from yours, or OTOH it could be a new thing.

    I had never thought about it before but I guess benzyl salicylate was really* the first synthetic ingredient to get into perfume at boatload levels. Something like 15% for L'Air du Temps I think.

    * On further thought, might some late 19th - early 20th Century perfumes have had Coumarin at as much as that? Certainly at least 10% in some instances. Further edits: While I am going only from copy formulas rather than originals, it looks as if vetiveryl acetate (actually a modified natural fraction rather than a specific compound), amyl salicylate, and isobutyl salicylate also could get into about this 15% range back in the day, preceding L'Air du Temps. So, benzyl salicylate does predate Hedione, IES, Galaxolide, etc for being used in boatloads, but is not the first.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 2nd March 2021 at 07:01 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    I'm glad to hear that I am simultaneously a Historical Throwback & Avant Garde Trendbuster! ;-)

    On a more substantive note, it appears that the terpeneless geranium can also subserve a beautiful smooth powderiness in the top. Ironically, what I just discovered today is that what *was* a harmful overdose in the sketch I posted above was the ambrocenide. Went down to ambrocenide 0.05 ppt & the entire sketch smoothed out, yet maintained fabulous diffusiveness & ambery note. This unleashed a very appealing silky powderiness of the lime & geranium at the top, which continues into a rosy phase of the geranium once the lime dissipates. Also, the excessive ambrocenide also put a "lid" on the cedary cedrenol that was taken off by the reduction. Incredible how powerful ambrocenide is! A 0.01% stock dilution in EtOH smells STRONG just sniffing by the open bottle...

  11. #11

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    So in trying to understand the terpeneless geranium material, the MSDS linked on the PSH website is from Ungerer & Co. It lists huge amounts of citronellol & geraniol, which these are "terpenes", right??? So what does it mean that this is "terpeneless"? How is this made from regular geranium eo? What is present in regular geranium eo & missing from this? I mean, the way this material behaves is very very different from regular geranium eo, so some very important constituents are very different...

    ETA: This old patent from 1970s describes making generally terpeneless eos by combining molecular distillation w chromatography... https://patents.google.com/patent/US3867262A/en

  12. #12

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Citronellol and geraniol are alcohols (terpenoid alcohols) rather than terpenes, as terpenes have nothing but carbons and hydrogens, in the ratio of 8 hydrogens per 5 carbons.

    It's a very interesting question what is missing. I had looked at it quickly recently and didn't figure it out. But theysmell and perform very differently.

    Looking quickly now, guaia-6,9-diene, and perhaps dimethyl sulfide? Not a terpene but perhaps removed in the same process.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 3rd March 2021 at 02:11 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Thanks!

  14. #14

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Also a little bit of pinenes but they aren't very potent, myrcene, and beta ocimene. It really depends on which Geranium GC/MS one is looking at.

    The EB Geranium Egypt, which I very much like, shows also Germacrene D, beta-Bourbonene, and delta-Cadinene, none of which I've smelled.

    And the GC/MS on Nanashi's site shows (Greek symbols not present) for I assume some particular Geranium, presumably Bourbon due to so much of the first constituent: :

    6.77% 6,9-guaiadiene Sesquiterpene
    1.1% ?-caryophyllene Sesquiterpene
    1.09% germacrene D Sesquiterpene
    0.93% ?-bourbonene Sesquiterpene
    0.73% ?-guaiene Sesquiterpene
    0.59% ?-cadinene Sesquiterpene
    0.46% ?-pinene Monoterpene
    0.31% ?-copaene Sesquiterpene
    0.16% limonene (d) Monoterpene
    0.08% p-cymene Monoterpene
    0.03% terpinolene Monoterpene
    0.01% camphene Monoterpene

    Which proves to have been the best source to look at, of the ones that I had tried up to right now.

    A lot more minor constituent terpenes can be found in the Plant Therapy Geranium Egypt GC/MS: https://www.planttherapy.com/test_re...n%20G30101.pdf

    and the Bourbon: https://www.planttherapy.com/test_re...n%20G20101.pdf

    In these, pretty much or possibly everything (for quite a few I would have to check individually) ending in "ene" is a terpene.

    It is not a chemical rule that all "enes" are terpenes, by no means, but in essential oils, commonly all of them are.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 3rd March 2021 at 02:09 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Btw i am going to guess that it is the heavier (and more substantive) sesquiterpenes that make the key difference between the Terpeneless and regular Geranium oils rather than the trace amounts of limonene and the like.

    If it were the limonene, pinene, etc, then as these amounts would be a drop in the bucket when already using a citrus oil, so I'd expect one could hardly tell the difference when in combination with such oils, but the difference remains night and day. Besides this, the difference certainly doesn't smell like limonene, pinene, etc. It has a much heavier, "thicker," somewhat "dark" quality, to me anyway, quite different from monoterpenes.

    Guaia-6,9-diene has no reported organoleptics or substantivity on TGSC, or even vapor pressure. It is characteristic of the Bourbon type.

    Germacrene-D is reported as "woody spicy" with no substantivity information but only modest vapor pressure, 0.007 mm Hg (cf limonene at 0.198 mm Hg, or geraniol 0.021 mm Hg.)

    delta-Cadinene is given as "thyme herbal woody dry" with same reported vapor pressure.

    beta-Bourbonene is given as "herbal woody floral balsamic" with a bit more vapor pressure, 0.025 mm Hg, still way less than the monoterpenes and now similar to geraniol.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Super informative! Thanks as always, Bill. Despite their modest vapor pressures, these heavier terpenes could be high olfactory impact. And I totally agree with you that the difference between terpeneless & regular geranium eo is heavy, dark, thick, opaque. It would be very interesting to get a sample of the eluted terpene fraction that (I assume) gets discarded when they make terpeneless geranium eo!

  17. #17

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    It certainly would!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Maybe I will reach out to Ungerer & see if they have any GCMS data on the retained & eluted fractions. Maybe they even have some of the eluted fraction around... ;-)

  19. #19

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    That would be very interesting.

    I have found Ungerer hard to get answers from, it took me weeks and many e-mails and even phone calls merely to verify that items were food grade, but you may have better luck, being a professor instead of merely trying to buy kilos of stuff from them!

  20. #20

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Just sent the following to Ungerer (apparently recently acquired by Givaudan) on their contact form:

    "I have been working with your terpeneless geranium eo in fragrance compositions, and it is an amazing material! It performs very differently from unfractionated geranium eo, and is much smoother, more transparent, and thus versatile in blends. In discussions with other perfumers, we are very curious as to the identity of the terpenes that are removed in the fractionation process. Do you have any information about this? Even more speculatively, we would dearly love to smell the terpene fraction that is removed, in the unlikely event that you might have some."

  21. #21

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Btw, somewhat along these lines, if I were to have a major financial success such as a great licensing deal, etc,, I would really want to get a 200-or-so-theoretical-plates spinning band distillation unit and fractionate quite a number of things. I think it would be a really great thing to do.

    If nothing else, for example, don't know what 6,9-guaiadiene smells like? Well, here it is, just pulled off of some Geranium Bourbon! Useful as an isolate? Let's find out!

    Besides producing isolates, any oil could be reshaped in many ways, possibly some useful.

    This would be somewhat like what Robertet does with their "Heart" products but I don't know if they do it to that degree of resolution, and besides with that you get just their choice of what components are kept and what are cut, and on only select materials.

    What about fractionated Opopanax, let's say?

  22. #22

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Looking forward to their answer!

  23. #23

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    In order to do useful stuff with spinning band distillation, I guess you'd need to buy a GCMS rig too? ;-)

  24. #24

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Not really, for my purposes.

    I could tell changes in what is eluted as it goes* by nose, and where wishing to identify materials just for the sake of knowledge, could send off collected materials for proton NMR for only $47. Not so good if not reasonably pure of course**, but in many cases the fractions would be reasonably pure I expect.

    If I wanted fancier, add or alternately do carbon for $50. For 2D, might as well send off to Phytochemia as cost is similar, $205. But I'd really have no reason to, all that really matters to me is if I want that material in my fractionated oil or as an isolate for perfume. I could name it whatever I want, e.g. Vetiver #17 or what have you, and to me that would be useful enough.

    * Or, possibly would do same as with column chromatography, of just collecting in series in a lot of flasks and deciding later which to combine as they are found to be the same.

    ** Also not so good of course in distinguishing say one terpene from another very similar one. The use is where possibilities are limited and there are differences relatively near to a functional group.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 3rd March 2021 at 07:45 PM.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Shouting out to Our old friend, Toujours Mink, who wrote to me and offered to send me this book, the 1944 Fritzsche Brothers book, Perfumes Handbook and Catalog. :-)

    I was reading it today, and saw this nice explanation on Terpeneless products that they produce, and wanted to post it here for your enjoyment and learning...
    Thanks to Toujours Mink!

    Terpeneless page from Fritzsche Bros.jpg
    Last edited by pkiler; 4th March 2021 at 12:01 AM.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Very interesting! Thanks for posting. I particularly love when they finally get to explaining that their fractionated oils are "unsurpassed"!

    ETA: According to this page Fritzsche got ultimately swallowed up by Givaudan in 1990. Looks like nothing is sold under that brand any more. http://www.perfumeprojects.com/museu...ritzsche.shtml

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Terpeneless Geranium EO From Perfumer's Supply House & Robertet Geranium Heart

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Shouting out to Our old friend, Toujours Mink, who wrote to me and offered to send me this book, the 1944 Fritzsche Brothers book, Perfumes Handbook and Catalog. :-)

    I was reading it today, and saw this nice explanation on Terpeneless products that they produce, and wanted to post it here for your enjoyment and learning...
    Thanks to Toujours Mink!
    You're very welcome, PK! I just wanted to get it into good hands that would appreciate it, and to thank you for all you contribute here. I'm so glad you're finding it useful!




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