Should my Orris butter (Iris Pallida), 15% Irone, have a dominant bitter green note ?

[loyalandtrue77]

I've just got round to diluting my Orris butter (Iris Pallida) Biolandes at 50% in IPM, with a little heat. It's my first experience of that material.

I have to say that smelling it pure or 50% I'm quite surprised at the dominant bitter green note. I'd like to say violet leaf, but It reminds me a little bit of green cognac which I really don't like so far (not tried that one in dilution yet in fairness). It's not so much the greenness I dislike but more the bitter/sourness.

I've yet to try it on a strip over time but rubbing a tiny amount of residual butter on my hand just gives the green note and not a lot else I can determine.

Is this normal for Orris butter in its pure form ?

[Darren Alan]

I'm going through the same thing with that exact same material. There are aspects of orris butter there...the waxy, fatty vegetal nuances with a little of the musty woodyness. But I'm not getting any powdery violet or iris undertones at all. I do pick up the violet leaf note, but I'm not getting any irones here. I even took it down to a 5% dilution & still nothing. Thoughts anyone?


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[pkiler]

First, do you realize that the source of the butter is the root, and not the flower?
So you won't pick up floralcy, as from the flowers.

I didn't look very hard to find a Robertet sample, but found a Bountoux and an Albert Vielle sample at 15% irones of butter.
I can't imagine that the Robertet would be significantly different.

Opening both, in the bottle headspace after opening, the first smell I got was the Irones. Then came the waxy notes.
I didn't really get bitter, though...

[loyalandtrue77]

First, do you realize that the source of the butter is the root, and not the flower?
So you won't pick up floralcy, as from the flowers.

I didn't look very hard to find a Robertet sample, but found a Bountoux and an Albert Vielle sample at 15% irones of butter.
I can't imagine that the Robertet would be significantly different.

Opening both, in the bottle headspace after opening, the first smell I got was the Irones. Then came the waxy notes.
I didn't really get bitter, though...

I’m aware that this material comes from the root and did enough research prior to purchase to expect something very different to other Orris materials I have. Also the green note was expected but it’s very dominant and quite sharp to me. Not very pleasant in all honesty.

I found a post on the forum discussing Orris butter and a poster warned against keeping it in plastic as it can take on the plastic smell very easily. I kept mine in the plastic it came in for over two weeks. Maybe this has happened to my Orris butter.

[Contrapunctus]

In my opinion, a good quality orris butter should show up the characteristic smell of Irones, which is to my nose violet, powdery, waxy, silky, a bit fruity, floral, woody combined with a subtle cool radiant background. Because of the content of myristic acid, orris butter can get some rancid and sour off-notes over time. - According to your description (green, bitter), I'd be sceptical about the quality of your orris butter.

I really like orris butter - occasionally, I even wear some of the diluted material as a discrete natural perfume.

[loyalandtrue77]

In my opinion, a good quality orris butter should show up the characteristic smell of Irones, which is to my nose violet, powdery, waxy, silky, a bit fruity, floral, woody combined with a subtle cool radiant background. Because of the content of myristic acid, orris butter can get some rancid and sour off-notes over time. - According to your description (green, bitter), I'd be sceptical about the quality of your orris butter.

I really like orris butter - occasionally, I even wear some of the diluted material as a discrete natural perfume.

Your description of Orris butter ties in with what I was expecting and hoping for but looks like something isn’t right with mine unfortunately. I’ll try with another supplier and see how it compares. Thanks.

[Sniffita]

I have the same Biolandes iris butter.
I agree that, at first impression, it is a bit more on the green side, comparing to another one I had from different source. I don't find it particularly bitter.
I think the best thing to do is waiting at least 3/4 weeks after diluting. I don't know if it makes sense, but maybe irones need time to develop in their new alcoholic environment.
I see it with my home made iris rizhomes tinctures, they improve by ageing.
I diluted mine just a week ago. I will leave it some time to "mature", and then I will report my impressions.

[loyalandtrue77]

I have the same Biolandes iris butter.
I agree that, at first impression, it is a bit more on the green side, comparing to another one I had from different source. I don't find it particularly bitter.
I think the best thing to do is waiting at least 3/4 weeks after diluting. I don't know if it makes sense, but maybe irones need time to develop in their new alcoholic environment.
I see it with my home made iris rizhomes tinctures, they improve by ageing.
I diluted mine just a week ago. I will leave it some time to "mature", and then I will report my impressions.

Thanks Sniffita. That’s interesting to know. I’ll keep checking on it and see if there’s any change.

[Darren Alan]

I agree with the OP. I have orris butter from 3 different sources and although they are all different in their nuance, they all have a characteristic irone facet that this material is strangely lacking. I appreciate it for what it is, but it almost makes me question its provenance


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[Sniffita]

I have resmelled this Biolandes iris butter.
I must say that for the moment it is not getting any better. It is only green, very green and slightly woody. It lacks the powdery softness and silky velvety earhy character. I am quite disappointed.

[Bill Roberts]

There are two Biolandes Orris products which are 15% irone or irones. (EDIT: That is wrong. The Artessence does not seem to claim that figure.)

One is actual Orris Butter. PSH sells this.

The other is their "Orris Butter Artessence," wherein (as I understand it) the word "Artessence" means it isn't what the previous words just said, but is rather a natural reconstruction. That comes out a little bit classier sounding than "Orris Butter (Fake)" and so coming up with that term was some good marketing thinking by Biolandes for sure.

PA sells that, as well as a differing "Orris Butter" product with authenticity open to some question and two "tinctures," one of which is diluted Robertet Orris Resinoid and smells pleasant and. interesting but I have not used it , and the other which I have not bought is apparently a dilution of the previous "Orris Butter" product.

Needless to say the "Artessence" is many times cheaper. I have not smelled it and so can't comment on it.

Is that what you have? (Edit: Probably not given statement of being 15% irones, but as I can't delete post, and maybe there's a point to mentioning the Artessence, I have left the blunder as is except for these notes.)

[loyalandtrue77]

If you have Biolandes, there are two Biolandes Orris products which are 15% irones.

One is actual Orris Butter. PSH sells this.

The other is their "Orris Butter Artessence," wherein (as I understand it) the word "Artessence" means itt isn't what the previous words just said, but it is rather a natural reconstruction. That comes out a little bit classier sounding than "Orris Butter (Fake)" and so coming up with that term was some good marketing thinking by Biolandes for sure.

PA sells that.

Needless to say the "Artessence" is many times cheaper. I have not smelled it and so can't comment on it.

Is that what you have?

I definitely have the actual Orris butter (Pallida) Bill, from PSH. I assume Sniffita has the same.

[Bill Roberts]

I wonder if it varies, as natural products can, or if my memory is bad (though there's no way I could ever have perceived as you did and forgotten that), or possibly I'm just a different perceiver on this. I will check when I get home. Mine was purchased about a year and a half ago.

It is a fact that sometimes things that so far as I can tell I smell perfectly well, others say they are green and I do not think so, whether merely as different use of the word or actually different perception I can't say. So that could be it. Also I don't believe I have ever ascribed "bitter" to an odor, except perhaps cocoa and some medicinal type stuff, so it might be differing use of words or actually different sensing, impossible to say really.

But I certainly never have thought bitter from it, or dominant green. I'll try again though.

[loyalandtrue77]

I wonder if it varies, as natural products can, or if my memory is bad (though there's no way I could ever have perceived as you did and forgotten that), or possibly I'm just a different perceiver on this. I will check when I get home. Mine was purchased about a year and a half ago.

It is a fact that I sometimes things that so far as I can tell I smell perfectly well, others say they are green and I do not think so, whether merely as different use of the word or actually different perception I can't say, so that could be it.

I suppose it could be down to a variation. This is my first experience of Orris butter so have nothing to compare it with unfortunately.

I keep trying to find the sweet, powdery, violet aspects that contribute towards making this such a prized material but I just don't get those. I asked my wife to give a second opinion and she also picks up the sharp green note, but also cocoa. After a year and a bit of doing this I'm still very much a beginner Bill so it could well be down to my perception of the material, although Sniffita and Darren both seem to agree. I look forward to seeing how your batch compares.

[Bill Roberts]

Perception is a very interesting subject and the more (it's not been any tremendous amount to date) I get experience with seeking useful feedback from people who might be typical of users, the more it seems that limiting to whether they like something and how much, or do you prefer this to that, is nearly all that ends up being reliable. Asking about how much that a named note seems present seems to miss more than hit.

Related to that, as an example I have read so many comments on Paco Rabanne Pour Homme where people call it green, so that must be common, but I don't perceive green at all.

if I tried to make a planned homage to it "green to me" because of reading all those impressions of green I could be going 180 degrees in the wrong direction.

Or in my game entry, a judge called it spicy, but I sense none and wouldn't even know what material could have given that. No eugenol in there or anything like that. I'm truly clueless, but I am sure he perceived as he did and maybe his terminology would be the more common one than mine. Do I sense the note he did? Maybe, but if so I give it a different name and I don't even know what that would be.

But if it came at as enjoyed and well-balanced, then that is what matters even if somehow there is this communications (or actual perception?) gap.

A bit of an aside, but the intended relevance was, if it doesn't smell where it's making the perfume better to you and others -- whether called green or not -- then it's not useful, whether green or not, while if the reverse is true, then it is.

We need the terminology but also sometimes between particular people it doesn't sync up.

[Contrapunctus]

Perception is a very interesting subject and the more (it's not been any tremendous amount to date) I get experience with seeking useful feedback from people who might be typical of users, the more it seems that limiting to whether they like something and how much, or do you prefer this to that, is nearly all that ends up being reliable. Asking about how much that a named note seems present seems to miss more than hit.

Related to that, as an example I have read so many comments on Paco Rabanne Pour Homme where people call it green, so that must be common, but I don't perceive green at all.

if I tried to make a planned homage to it "green to me" because of reading all those impressions of green I could be going 180 degrees in the wrong direction.

Or in my game entry, a judge called it spicy, but I sense none and wouldn't even know what material could have given that. No eugenol in there or anything like that. I'm truly clueless, but I am sure he perceived as he did and maybe his terminology would be the more common one than mine. Do I sense the note he did? Maybe, but if so I give it a different name and I don't even know what that would be.

But if it came at as enjoyed and well-balanced, then that is what matters even if somehow there is this communications (or actual perception?) gap.

A bit of an aside, but the intended relevance was, if it doesn't smell where it's making the perfume better to you and others -- whether called green or not -- then it's not useful, whether green or not, while if the reverse is true, then it is.

We need the terminology but also sometimes between particular people it doesn't sync up.

That is indeed a very interesting topic, Bill. A few days ago, I posted a thread "Different perception of scents after airing the room". I'm curious about your thoughts!

[Contrapunctus]

Regarding (possible) different perception of orris butter, I'd recommend a second reference - in this case: pure alpha-irone. I'd be surprised if someone would associate a-irone's scent with green or bitter. - If I compare my orris butter (of Italian origin) with alpha-irone, I only can say, that both scents are quite similar (although the butter is much more complex of course).

Because of the problems getting some fine quality (in terms of irone-heavy smell) orris butter, I'd recommend getting some alpha-irone instead. Alpha-Irona is such a beautiful material with a supreme orris scent!

[loyalandtrue77]

Perception is a very interesting subject and the more (it's not been any tremendous amount to date) I get experience with seeking useful feedback from people who might be typical of users, the more it seems that limiting to whether they like something and how much, or do you prefer this to that, is nearly all that ends up being reliable. Asking about how much that a named note seems present seems to miss more than hit.

Related to that, as an example I have read so many comments on Paco Rabanne Pour Homme where people call it green, so that must be common, but I don't perceive green at all.

if I tried to make a planned homage to it "green to me" because of reading all those impressions of green I could be going 180 degrees in the wrong direction.

Or in my game entry, a judge called it spicy, but I sense none and wouldn't even know what material could have given that. No eugenol in there or anything like that. I'm truly clueless, but I am sure he perceived as he did and maybe his terminology would be the more common one than mine. Do I sense the note he did? Maybe, but if so I give it a different name and I don't even know what that would be.

But if it came at as enjoyed and well-balanced, then that is what matters even if somehow there is this communications (or actual perception?) gap.

A bit of an aside, but the intended relevance was, if it doesn't smell where it's making the perfume better to you and others -- whether called green or not -- then it's not useful, whether green or not, while if the reverse is true, then it is.

We need the terminology but also sometimes between particular people it doesn't sync up.

That makes a lot of sense to me and I've experienced similar when trying out new perfumes on my work colleague guinea pigs Happily they mostly seem to enjoy them but it's surprising sometimes how they describe what they 'think' they smell. I still struggle with that myself although I'm sharpening up a bit over time.

At the moment I'd be interested to see what this Orris butter might add to an Orris accord but it wouldn't be of much use as a stand alone Orris material. I'm sure I read similar on the forum somewhere before I made the purchase anyway. I just really wanted to try it for myself. I see it as part of the learning process.

[Bill Roberts]

I was in agreement yours and Bkkorn's thoughts and a vivid example for me was, a then-member here wanted to get people's perceptions on Iso-E Super, which I had never cared much about and had never tried to perceive deeply into, and had much fewer thought-of notes for than he did, but went and tried to perceive closely because of the request.

And what happened was, it really brought out some trace scents from previously opened bottles, particularly some scarcely-remaining Meyer Lemon and citral. Very remarkably. I hadn't expected that.

And the entire room clearly seemed to have more Meyer Lemon and citral after the Iso-E Super bottle was opened.

More generally, I always feel I can't perceive accurately when having the area "contaminated" with scents that aren't part of the fragrance being formulated, and sometimes go outside for reality checks.

[Contrapunctus]

That makes a lot of sense to me and I've experienced similar when trying out new perfumes on my work colleague guinea pigs Happily they mostly seem to enjoy them but it's surprising sometimes how they describe what they 'think' they smell. I still struggle with that myself although I'm sharpening up a bit over time.

At the moment I'd be interested to see what this Orris butter might add to an Orris accord but it wouldn't be of much use as a stand alone Orris material. I'm sure I read similar on the forum somewhere before I made the purchase anyway. I just really wanted to try it for myself. I see it as part of the learning process.

May I ask if you know the scent of pure alpha-Irone?

[loyalandtrue77]

Regarding (possible) different perception of orris butter, I'd recommend a second reference - in this case: pure alpha-irone. I'd be surprised if someone would associate a-irone's scent with green or bitter. - If I compare my orris butter (of Italian origin) with alpha-irone, I only can say, that both scents are quite similar (although the butter is much more complex of course).

Because of the problems getting some fine quality (in terms of irone-heavy smell) orris butter, I'd recommend getting some alpha-irone instead. Alpha-Irona is such a beautiful material with a supreme orris scent!

It's funny you should mention that as that's exactly what I did a couple of hours ago with my Irone Alpha. It's lovely. Sweet, powdery, almost fruity raspberry. A rich, luxurious material in my book. My Orris butter smells nothing like it.

[Bill Roberts]

May I ask if you know the scent of pure alpha-Irone?

Yes, to me alpha-irone by itself is not close to Orris Butter, but alpha-irone plus myristic acid is fairly close, though real Orris Butter certainly has more depth and beauty. Maybe from having other irones, which are not themselves commercially available? In isolation, to me alpha-irone is "elegant" but not really characterful. I find it reminiscent, in a very transparent way, of irises from childhood, though I know of no evidence that the flower emits it. I think it is more a modifier, it can influence fragrance formulas quite favorably towards feeling luxurious, but not so much by adding a note itself.

Agreed completely with loyalandtrue on not a trace of green or bitter (to me) in alpha irone and it would seem astonishing to me if anyone thought so.

[Contrapunctus]

It's funny you should mention that as that's exactly what I did a couple of hours ago with my Irone Alpha. It's lovely. Sweet, powdery, almost fruity raspberry. A rich, luxurious material in my book. My Orris butter smells nothing like it.

Well, in this case I'd go so far to say that your orris butter definetely isn't a top quality one. (Btw, my Italian orris butter was roughly 3 times the PSH price.)

[loyalandtrue77]

Well, in this case I'd go so far to say that your orris butter definetely isn't a top quality one. (Btw, my Italian orris butter was roughly 3 times the PSH price.)

It's beginning to look very much like that i'm afraid. I'm curious now. Think i'll have to put an order in soon. Hermitage have switched back on UK customers so I'll try there and report back.

[Sniffita]

I definitely have the actual Orris butter (Pallida) Bill, from PSH. I assume Sniffita has the same.

Yes, mine it's the same. Biolandes iris butter 15% irones. I bought it from PSH.

[Sniffita]

Regarding (possible) different perception of orris butter, I'd recommend a second reference - in this case: pure alpha-irone. I'd be surprised if someone would associate a-irone's scent with green or bitter. - If I compare my orris butter (of Italian origin) with alpha-irone, I only can say, that both scents are quite similar (although the butter is much more complex of course).

Because of the problems getting some fine quality (in terms of irone-heavy smell) orris butter, I'd recommend getting some alpha-irone instead. Alpha-Irona is such a beautiful material with a supreme orris scent!

I have syntetic alpha iron, that can be useful. But IMO it is just a part of the true smell of a true, fine quality iris butter.

[Bill Roberts]

I remembered only a little green but actually there's quite a generous amount, though that aspect didnt 't noticeably (to me) affect formula greenness in use as I remember.

No bitter to me.

My Eden Botanicals has been used up for a long time so I cannot do a side-by-side but I don't remember that as green or much characterful at all. Basically myristic acid and a little alpha irone, not much more. I clearly remember personally preferring this when receiving it, but not from any meaningful testing, just personal taste and impression. I like character and interest, unless that works against a composition of course.

I asked my wife what she perceived, providing no information first. Green, stalk, flower, bark, powdery, musk (don't take that seriously as she doesn't really know the term), old school perfume, old lady elegant.

She denied sweet when asked after that, but that did not get her to say bitter. On being asked bitter, she said no, but then on thought, said it would be bitter if you bit into it but did not smell bitter.

Anyway, all this seems consistent with your findings, so it doesn't seem necessarily or even likely a matter of batch variability.

[Sniffita]

Well, in this case I'd go so far to say that your orris butter definetely isn't a top quality one. (Btw, my Italian orris butter was roughly 3 times the PSH price.)

That's why I bought just 2 grams of this Biolandes stuff. I was a bit suspicious as it seemed too cheap. And I had a look at Biolandes web page of the product. They clearly say that they use particular tecnologies to accelerate processing of rhizomes to make it cheaper. Don't need to add anything more.

[Sniffita]

It's beginning to look very much like that i'm afraid. I'm curious now. Think i'll have to put an order in soon. Hermitage have switched back on UK customers so I'll try there and report back.

If you do order it from Hermitage, please let me know what you think. I have always got fine materials from them. I just bought a few things from Rebekka, (cascalone, splendione and some other) so have to stay in the budget for a while...

[loyalandtrue77]

Well it sounds like you have the powdery aspect in your batch Bill, so a bit more like it. The green note being quite prominent too. I say bitter but possibly a better description would be sharp. There’s probably a better one but I can’t think of any right now. I need to spend more time on organoleptic descriptors. Thanks for checking it out.