Is it dangerous to mix aroma chemicals with other aroma chemicals?

[John73]

Is mixing aroma chemicals with other aroma chemicals dangerous, as you can accidently create toxic perfume?

Does anyone know any website or formula to calculate if two chemicals will create a hazardous substance?

[ultravisitor]

Maybe leave chemistry to the chemists.

[KBF1972]

I think this is could be a problem with some of the new “artisan” brands. One of which is very popular here on Basenotes. Just throw a bunch of stuff in a cauldron and mix it up and call it perfume

[Nasenmann]

Is mixing aroma chemicals with other aroma chemicals dangerous, as you can accidently create toxic perfume?

Does anyone know any website or formula to calculate if two chemicals will create a hazardous substance?

You won't find an app or a website to calculate something like that. Chemistry is far too complex for that. What you can look up are toxicology reports, safe levels (according to IFRA and Co) and stuff like that for individual aroma chems. You won't learn from that how they interact with each other though.

Maybe leave chemistry to the chemists.

Personally I have not much fear expermienting with aroma chems and I have never heared of a hazardous reaction from combining any of those but if you are concerned, that is sound advice right there.

If you have a specific combination in mind I suggest you post it in the DIY-subforum since there are some pros and semi-pros who might be able to help you out.

[hednic]

The people in the DIY Forum would best be able to answer your questions

[freewheelingvagabond]

I think this is could be a problem with some of the new “artisan” brands. One of which is very popular here on Basenotes. Just throw a bunch of stuff in a cauldron and mix it up and call it perfume

LOL

[freewheelingvagabond]

deleted

[Castingshadows]

I think this is could be a problem with some of the new “artisan” brands. One of which is very popular here on Basenotes. Just throw a bunch of stuff in a cauldron and mix it up and call it perfume

Which brand would that be?

[KBF1972]

Which brand would that be?

I will say it’s one that has its own thread and people go insane every time they release something. ��

[GoldWineMemories]

There's a volunteer regulating body that all perfumes sold in the EU have to adhere to called IFRA that specifically mandates what molecules can be used at what levels to avoid this. Just look up IFRA regulations if you want to learn more.

[avo1811]

I will say it’s one that has its own thread and people go insane every time they release something. ��

do you have insider info that we are missing, that this person has no idea what theyre doing and just throws a bunch of stuff in a cauldron and calls it perfume? Just curious where your info is coming from i guess.

[Castingshadows]

I will say it’s one that has its own thread and people go insane every time they release something. ��

If you went this far might as well say what’s on your mind so we all know about the superior taste and knowledge you’ve acquired in your journey.

[Healer]

Is mixing aroma chemicals with other aroma chemicals dangerous, as you can accidently create toxic perfume?

Does anyone know any website or formula to calculate if two chemicals will create a hazardous substance?

I'm not familiar with any website that may be specific to this. When working with any chemicals you should refer to the manufacturer's safety data sheet (SDS). In "Section 10: Stability and reactivity" on the SDS you can read about chemicals that they will be incompatible with.

In pure form there can be hazards with aroma-chemicals so care needs to be taken handling them eg. Allyl Hexanoate (used to create smell of pineapple) is toxic in pure form but okay to use diluted.

In terms of reactions the main reactions perfumers are concerned with are called Schiff's Bases (condensation reactions), the most common of which is the chemical Aurantiol (used for orange blossom) which is created by mixing Hydroxycitronellal (common Lily of the Valley aroma-chemical) with Methyl Anthranilate (used for grape scent and flavouring). There is a reaction and the mixture will get warm. Methyl Anthranilte will react with other aldehydes and is some cases the resulting reaction products can be dark in colour which can happen when the product is left over time.

So make sure you work with chemicals intended for use in perfumery and refer to the SDS for safety information. Read the product data sheet and background information and see if any issues are raised.

As others have mentioned there's the cosmetic regulations and IFRA. IFRA advise on maximum level of any particular chemical that is restricted. There are some chemicals that are now banned. You can look on IFRA website using the CAS number of the chemicals. When chemicals are sold by the supplier there should be an allergen report, SDS and IFRA certificate available, however some very small scale suppliers of natural materials tend not to have these.

[N.CAL Fragrance Reviewer]

Is mixing aroma chemicals with other aroma chemicals dangerous, as you can accidently create toxic perfume?

Why would you want to do such a thing in the first place?

[parker25mv]

Is mixing aroma chemicals with other aroma chemicals dangerous, as you can accidently create toxic perfume?

Does anyone know any website or formula to calculate if two chemicals will create a hazardous substance?

Basically the answer is no, you have nothing to worry about there.

You're not going to create anything "new and unexpected" that wasn't already harmful in the first place.


Probably the most "dangerous" thing related to "reactions" here is a few substances can oxidize in storage (in the presence of air and light, over long periods of time) and create sensitizers, which can cause a burning sensation and painful rash on skin.
These substances include completely natural things like orange oil.
(still nothing that's going to send you to the hospital, if it's in normal dilution levels)

There are not many members on this board who can tell you that with certainty, but I'm qualified to tell you that.
Your fears are unfounded here.

[HabibiGotIt]

I think this is could be a problem with some of the new “artisan” brands. One of which is very popular here on Basenotes. Just throw a bunch of stuff in a cauldron and mix it up and call it perfume

Lol, why the ALD hate?

[Mudassir]

I will say it’s one that has its own thread and people go insane every time they release something. ��

Only one? I see two

[Hazel_]

Listen to Parker25mv Assuming you're buying ACs from reputable sources specializing in those materials, you're not in any danger. Obviously ACs are not meant to be ingested or spread neat on the skin or breathed in neat (in the case of powders), but that's common sense. Even IFRA-restricted materials aren't going to explode or anything.

It's good to be careful, though! Your question comes from a much better attitude than folks who think they can put any essential oil undiluted on their skin, and call it perfume just because it's "natural". I came to perfume from an interest in cosmetic formulation, and I can tell you that making soap is an order of magnitude more dangerous than making perfume.

[pkiler]

In general, no, you are not going to make something toxic, IF the person making has studied, pays attention, and actually cares about people and customer's health.

There are a few who want to be called and known as people who flout the recommendations, that have caused skin injury. One guy in particular needs to be drummed out of Perfumery.

You must be smart, very smart to actually be a Perfumer. Not everyone "has it", or gets it. And you need to care for your fellow Man, instead of trying to just get a name for being a rebel.

The worst thing that has happened in my career, in this regard, was that a recent scent for a client blended after compounding, reacted, and made the smell of ammonia. This was solved by adjusting the PH, and neutralizing the ammonia. But that's it... but that's decent "Chemistry" work, too.

Real toxicity comes onto play when mixing different common household cleaning products, like bleach and ammonia, and or other things, that can react and create Chlorine gas, which is highly toxic, even fatal. This is 10,000 times worse than anything possible in Perfumery.. no one died from wearing or smelling a perfume, as far as I know... maybe 1 person per year dies of chlorine gas inhalation in the USA.
https://www.quora.com/How-many-peopl...-chlorine-gas?

[NobleScent]

Chloramines from bleach and ammonia.

Hydrochloric and hypochlorous acid from bleach and acids.

Glass cleaner can have ammonia or acids for example and should never be mixed with bleach.

Both cause irritation to mucus membranes and death in extreme cases. Always follow MSDS and please, if you can't get that stuff from the supplier, use good judgment on where you purchase from.

[Casper_grassy]

The worst thing that has happened in my career, in this regard, was that a recent scent for a client blended after compounding, reacted, and made the smell of ammonia. This was solved by adjusting the PH, and neutralizing the ammonia. But that's it... but that's decent "Chemistry" work, too.

If it smelled like ammonia, I'd assume the pH was high, if so, what type of solution did you use to bring it down?
Sorry, not too good at this stuff but open to learn.

[Bill Roberts]

There are not many members on this board who can tell you that with certainty, but I'm qualified to tell you that.

Hmm. I am not sure either on your putting yourself above other members of the board or on your assertion of qualification.

Have you even, say, a single graduate course in toxicology?

Could you share your basis for this assertion you apparently expect the OP to expect?

Always best to give the reason and let people decide for themseves whether it's enough for them to have trust.

That said, if the OP likes it is not difficult to search for discussion and sources for the reactions which do occur in perfume between ingredients, which principally are formation and reversal of formation of Schiff Bases, acetals, and esters, and polymerization, none of which cause harm. And as you say, oxidation occurs, which can increase potential for skin sensitization. It is not that I'm disagreeing with your conclusion, only the self-commentary as well as comparison to others, or at least the absence of provided reason it's justified. Perhaps it is, why not let us know rather than leave it as assertion. I had thought you only had some chemistry courses or perhaps an undergraduate degree in it but obviously I don't really know and neither would the OP.

Possibly an interesting article for the OP by a chemist and professional perfumer or at least so I understand, which discusses interactions of ingredients: https://www.fragrantica.com/news/The...ging-8125.html

[Bill Roberts]

If it smelled like ammonia, I'd assume the pH was high, if so, what type of solution did you use to bring it down?
Sorry, not too good at this stuff but open to learn.

It was a complicated matter without obvious cure, I don't recall the details but most likely a forum search would turn it up, as you wait on reply, if you like.

[Dallas.com]

Any substance that is applied to your skin has the potential for causing either local or systemic harm. Over the years the really dangerous substances used in perfumery have been banned or their use have been limited to non toxic levels. This is why I agree with the above comments that you should be responsible while making your perfumes and learn about your materials, safe levels and potential side effects before trying them on you , or worse, releasing them to the public. There are multiple resources that will guide you with regards of the safety of the Aroma chemicals and also "naturals" that can be as toxic if not properly used.

[Casper_grassy]

It was a complicated matter without obvious cure, I don't recall the details but most likely a forum search would turn it up, as you wait on reply, if you like.

Thanks Bill, found it.

For anyone curious

https://www.basenotes.net/threads/46...ttle-headspace

[Bill Roberts]

And thank you for finding it, Casper!

I was glad to re-read it as it was quite interesting and valuable and I forgot how it turned out!

[Casper_grassy]

And thank you for finding it, Casper!

I was glad to re-read it as it was quite interesting and valuable and I forgot how it turned out!

Yeah it was interesting, I learned a good bit of info.

[Hazel_]

Any substance that is applied to your skin has the potential for causing either local or systemic harm.

This is very true, and in fact exactly the reason I worded my earlier reply (in sum: "you don't need to worry about ACs, people are more lax with the more dangerous EOs") the way that I did.

I think in some of the responses here we're reading some holdover anxiety from past interactions with inexperienced perfumers who have made perfumes that cause skin reactions. That's an expected and valid response. Anyone who takes perfuming seriously—and I'd venture to say most of the DIY forum does—takes great care not to cause sensitization and reactions.

However, I'm concerned with perhaps over-emphasizing the idea of 'danger' to the non-perfumer public that buys perfumes. (This question was originally asked in the General forum, after all.) We already have countless companies selling perfumes whose marketing boils down to "all natural" or worse "no chemicals." I'm not talking about folks like Mandy Aftel, who I immensely respect, but the fear mongers. I see their ads on Instagram every day, they're disappointingly prevalent.

I want people to know that there is equal danger in naturals and that just because ACs may have unfamiliar names, doesn't mean they're likely to react violently. Citrus essential oil is as bad or worse as any given aromachemical in terms of reactions and sensitization.

[parker25mv]

Hmm. I am not sure either on your putting yourself above other members of the board or on your assertion of qualification.

Oh no, I think you misunderstand.

I was definitely not putting myself above other members in terms of knowledge of perfumery.
The opening post was asking about unforeseen chemical reactions between different things.

For the most part there is generally very little chemical interaction between the different ACs that go into a perfume, certainly not the type of thing that would create anything with a very different biological effect.

As for toxicology, it is a subject I am pretty familiar with. I'm not so much commenting on things in perfumery not being toxic, but rather by mixing things you're not going to be creating anything new that is more toxic than what the starting ingredients were in the first place.

[Bill Roberts]

"Pretty familiar with."

That's the "qualification."

There has been a lot of past occurrences of you presenting what you say as they were expert statements when in many cases they were onlyspeculative opinions not even backed up by having smelled the material you were advising on (yet no one could tell from the reply, they would have thought you had experienced what you were saying.)

When telling someone "I'm qualified to tell you that," and that's a direct quote of what you said, particularly on a heath and safety question, one would hope there would be better back up than "I am pretty familiar with." Perhaps your years in the industry, perhaps some graduate education on it, perhaps an undergraduate major in it, you know, objective qualifications to back up claiming one is qualified. Enough to let a person decide for themselves if they really should be taking on authority what you say, from you saying "I'm qualified to tell you that."

Perhaps a bit less of the assertions would result in less friction, if you find these replies friction. And besides this, they would be clearer and more accurate.

You did do a good job before, after a long while of objections, in adding disclaimers that you hadn't actually smelled the material you are talking about. So I had hoped that that tendency of sounding expert when not really, or at all in a case like that, might have ended and was a little concerned about the apparent return of it.

I really am not by any means trying to give you a hard time. I'm trying to communicate an important point of not over-asserting and that doing so causes problems.

And I want to be clear: But for that, you are very good and valued contributor. That's a big "but," though. Fortunately it is incredibly easily taken care of, if you wish, which would leave, purely being a very good and valued contributor.