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  1. #1

    Question Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Hello to everyone reading.

    I have a Damask Rose Absolute that I've bought from a seller (not a popular or well known seller of aromatics, doesn't matter now) and I've noticed from the past month that the aroma of the absolute has gone off. At first I thought that it was something wrong with me as I've been a little sick when I've started to feel the difference, but it seemed like I was not the problem, but the problem is the absolute.

    The absolute has an aroma like no more roses. To describe it as complet as possible: rice-grain, spicy (but not quite), lemony (but not a nice lemon), no more sweetness and like wet hay with green crushed leaves.

    I've had 2 grams of this absolute for about a couple of months. It is from Turkey and the interesting facts are that: I've bought from this seller before Damask Rose Absolute with the same batch number as before, and it was okay. And another fact is that I have this absolute dilluted in ethanol and dilluted it doesn't have this off aroma.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    I don’t think 2 months should make a difference, but who knows?
    How are you storing it? Is the cap tight- any loss of product? Is it in sunlight ? Is it hot? Is there a volume of air at the top of the bottle?
    It could have been improperly stored at the retailer and anything finished off.
    I could be so wrong about this : I think that if it was a reconstruction, the profile would remain the same.
    It could be a partial reconstruction that is oxidizing but that I don’t think would account for the complete degradation of aroma- I can only think you bottle was compromised badly at some point.
    Others wit more experience will correct me...

  3. #3

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    The first things to consider beside the reliability of your seller are the storage conditions + cross contamination factor (e.g. if you are using a glass pipette, or have used a cleaned bottle to stock your compound in, but still containing traces of some stuff).
    Besides, rose oil and absolute are very sensitive to some contaminants.
    "A good perfume is only the effect of serendipity; this happy chance falls only to good perfumers" Unknown old perfumer - 1932

  4. #4

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Well, the absolute is stored into a glass bottle of 5ml volume.

    I've used a clean pipette into that bottle, it has a dropper. I've kept the absolute in my room and recently in a wooden cabinet. I've opened the cap of the bottle quite a few times, because I've dipped some of the absolute on my hand (as I greatly enjoy the fragrance), alhtough the absolute that I've had before this one was used the same as this one, it didn't developed this off aroma.

    The same has occured to me; that the absolute might've been adulterated, or contamined somehow from the seller side, or oxidation (even though the last bottle that I've had didn't had the problem of 'oxidation', being opened time and time again to smell the aroma or to dip some on my hands).

  5. #5

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Quote Originally Posted by simple.user View Post
    I've noticed from the past month that the aroma of the absolute has gone off. At first I thought that it was something wrong with me as I've been a little sick when I've started to feel the difference, but it seemed like I was not the problem, but the problem is the absolute.

    I've had 2 grams of this absolute for about a couple of months. It is from Turkey and the interesting facts are that: I've bought from this seller before Damask Rose Absolute with the same batch number as before, and it was okay. And another fact is that I have this absolute dilluted in ethanol and dilluted it doesn't have this off aroma.
    Have you smelled the absolute diluted now or very recently, or only a dilution done when the absolute was even newer? (Two months is not very old.)

    I am asking on the perhaps off-chance that the absolute as it now is may smell fine to you when diluted.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Is it a rubber dropper? I have heard there can be issues, and so I’ve never used them- but the rubber can apparently degrade- idk for sure

  7. #7

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Jo Malone fragrances are notorious for this. They go off after the 10th month or so and the fragrance notes all lose their potency and transform into a bland scent of their own; every Jo Malone cologne will start to smell the same. In my opinion this is due to the aroma chemicals used in perfumes. When they don't have any natural oils combined with aroma chemicals, the chemicals eventually don't last and go bad and don't have the lifespan of more traditional fragrances. I think modern day perfumes only have a "use by date" of one year from purchase date - max. It's like cheap quality wine.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    It's probably not a real absolute. I can be tricky to find authentic absolutes. What they call absolutes nowadays are chemical imitations.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Have you smelled the absolute diluted now or very recently, or only a dilution done when the absolute was even newer? (Two months is not very old.)

    I am asking on the perhaps off-chance that the absolute as it now is may smell fine to you when diluted.
    I've smelled the dilluted one now/recently and suprise... it seems that this one its starting to have the off aroma as well.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolieo View Post
    Is it a rubber dropper? I have heard there can be issues, and so I’ve never used them- but the rubber can apparently degrade- idk for sure
    It has a rubber dropper, but I have other EO/Absolutes from the supplier with the same kind of dropper, and the others are fine. (Even Patchouli EO from them has aged quite fine).

  11. #11

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Quote Originally Posted by grassed View Post
    It's probably not a real absolute. I can be tricky to find authentic absolutes. What they call absolutes nowadays are chemical imitations.
    Although the supplier doesn't offer and GC-MS Certification, they have an Material Safety Data Sheet which lists some of the the constituents that the absolute has.

    Constituents

  12. #12

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    All those could be bought and doing so would be much cheaper than sourcing rose absolute.

    That doesn't prove it's fake, or "cut," but neither does an SDS with that image within it provide any evidence towards being genuine and unadulterated.

    Momentarily I was concerned with having only cis rose oxide and no trans, but that was a false alarm as the trans can coelute with the PEA and thus not be quantitated. That's neither here nor there as to whether this is genuine, but mentioning for accuracy.

    There is, incidentally, no need for an SDS whose only component is Rose Absolute to list such as rose oxide, so far as I know, but it would have to be listed if added intentionally.

    That said, there's no reason why a fake made from those ingredients would have poor stability.

    At any rate, I would suggest buying an undoubted product. I am not convinced (not that I have to be) from your findings that the issue may not be your sense of smell having changed rather than actual change in the product. That's awfully fast for so much change. If you buy a fine undoubted Rose Absolute and it smells perfect to you, then that answers both the sense of smell question and the question about quality of this product. Or if it smells poor quality to you too, then that leaves it likely that your sense of smell went askew while sick and hasn't fully recovered. Anyway, without a product of undoubted quality to compare to, there is no way to be sure.

    If you are in the US (there is no way to tell but your word choice has me thinking likely not) I would recommend the Turkish Rose at PSH as being really fine value for money as well as beautiful.

    In contrast the only report I have seen on the Perfumer's Apprentice "Rose - Absolute (Blend)"* has been poor, and I don't think ethyl hexanoate or ethyl octanoate exist in Rose so I believe it to be adulterated at best. The manufacturer chose not to answer my question on whether it was a base, was 100% from rose, or was rose with some additions such as those compounds. So I would not call that one undoubted.

    I have not bought Eden Botanicals' Rose Absolutes in years but I have no reason to doubt them, as another possibility.

    Not to beat a dead horse, but if you are across the pond I would not count a Hermitage product as being of "undoubted" quality unless someone else has recently ordered the same and can vouch for it. It seems that their rate of good product is quite high but as a factual point it has not been 100% over time. It is entirely possible, though, if that would be your most convenient retailer, someone can vouch for one of their current products.

    * On that peculiar term "Blend" being added to the name, which was only recently and the manufacturer does not use this word, at first I thought this was acknowledgment that it's not real Rose Absolute but is instead a blend of aromamaterials and gave them credit for the revision. But PA denied that and said it meant blend of different strains of rose. The manufacturer says no such thing so far as I can tell. Anyway, it's a dodgy situation at best, so if you need to buy another Rose Absolute, I suggest steering away from that product.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 15th April 2021 at 03:14 PM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    It's just hard for me to justify the cost of real absolute when it is 78% PEA.

    I'd rather make my own at a fraction of the cost.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
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    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    On that note, due to my not taking enough care on it, I missed having a request put in for the Vigon samples I wanted when relatively a lot of materials were being purchased, and instead had to separately ask for samples later. As a result (I guess) I got everything but the Beta-Damascenone 1% Natural. That one was just left clean off.

    I have not yet been able to smell or get that. That was my one chance, to date.

    Hopefully another big order will be needed and I'll be found worthy then

    Of course it may also be that they don't have it. The website does not reflect actual stock.

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    It's just hard for me to justify the cost of real absolute when it is 78% PEA.
    And for some sellers I guess it's hard to justify paying for real Absolute when they can buy a fake or "watered down" product and just slap on paperwork and write some text saying or implying it's genuine.

    "Why pay dear to sell dear, when you can pay cheap and sell dear?" perhaps is the thought dancing through their heads.

    Anyway I prefer trustworthy retailers and manufacturers over the dodgy particularly for things like this.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    All those could be bought and doing so would be much cheaper than sourcing rose absolute.

    That doesn't prove it's fake, or "cut," but neither does an SDS with that image within it provide any evidence towards being genuine and unadulterated.

    Momentarily I was concerned with having only cis rose oxide and no trans, but that was a false alarm as the trans can coelute with the PEA and thus not be quantitated. That's neither here nor there as to whether this is genuine, but mentioning for accuracy.

    There is, incidentally, no need for an SDS whose only component is Rose Absolute to list such as rose oxide, so far as I know, but it would have to be listed if added intentionally.

    That said, there's no reason why a fake made from those ingredients would have poor stability.

    At any rate, I would suggest buying an undoubted product. I am not convinced (not that I have to be) from your findings that the issue may not be your sense of smell having changed rather than actual change in the product. That's awfully fast for so much change. If you buy a fine undoubted Rose Absolute and it smells perfect to you, then that answers both the sense of smell question and the question about quality of this product. Or if it smells poor quality to you too, then that leaves it likely that your sense of smell went askew while sick and hasn't fully recovered. Anyway, without a product of undoubted quality to compare to, there is no way to be sure.

    If you are in the US (there is no way to tell but your word choice has me thinking likely not) I would recommend the Turkish Rose at PSH as being really fine value for money as well as beautiful.

    In contrast the only report I have seen on the Perfumer's Apprentice "Rose - Absolute (Blend)"* has been poor, and I don't think ethyl hexanoate or ethyl octanoate exist in Rose so I believe it to be adulterated at best. The manufacturer chose not to answer my question on whether it was a base, was 100% from rose, or was rose with some additions such as those compounds. So I would not call that one undoubted.

    I have not bought Eden Botanicals' Rose Absolutes in years but I have no reason to doubt them, as another possibility.

    Not to beat a dead horse, but if you are across the pond I would not count a Hermitage product as being of "undoubted" quality unless someone else has recently ordered the same and can vouch for it. It seems that their rate of good product is quite high but as a factual point it has not been 100% over time. It is entirely possible, though, if that would be your most convenient retailer, someone can vouch for one of their current products.

    * On that peculiar term "Blend" being added to the name, which was only recently and the manufacturer does not use this word, at first I thought this was acknowledgment that it's not real Rose Absolute but is instead a blend of aromamaterials and gave them credit for the revision. But PA denied that and said it meant blend of different strains of rose. The manufacturer says no such thing so far as I can tell. Anyway, it's a dodgy situation at best, so if you need to buy another Rose Absolute, I suggest steering away from that product.
    I've recently sent the seller a message with my concerns and problems. Haven't received any answers from them, for the moment.

    Its true that I'm from "across the pond" and Hermitage Oils is my best shot. Though even Pell Wall has an Rose Absolute from Albert Vieille.

    I'm waiting now to buy some Rose Absolute to make a comparison, but I doubtly believe that it is something wrong with my sens of smell in this regard, because I'm not the only one who has "observed" this difference in the aroma. I've asked other people about the aroma and they, as well as me, noticed the difference.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Quote Originally Posted by simple.user View Post
    I've recently sent the seller a message with my concerns and problems. Haven't received any answers from them, for the moment.

    Its true that I'm from "across the pond" and Hermitage Oils is my best shot. Though even Pell Wall has an Rose Absolute from Albert Vieille.

    I'm waiting now to buy some Rose Absolute to make a comparison, but I doubtly believe that it is something wrong with my sens of smell in this regard, because I'm not the only one who has "observed" this difference in the aroma. I've asked other people about the aroma and they, as well as me, noticed the difference.
    It may be more helpful for you and informative for us to name that "problematic" seller one day or another...
    "A good perfume is only the effect of serendipity; this happy chance falls only to good perfumers" Unknown old perfumer - 1932

  17. #17

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Quote Originally Posted by apolo085 View Post
    It may be more helpful for you and informative for us to name that "problematic" seller one day or another...
    I've posted on the forums before on another topic and I've mentioned there the name of the seller.

    I'm from Romania and they are based in Romania, although they also sell internationally. I believe that besides Romania, they are not so quite popular, so it might not be a big problem for anyone else.

    But for giving an answer... you can check here.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Yes, it does help.

    Way too cheap to possibly be genuine. Had the source been provided before a lot of time could have been saved.

    (For some reason many -- you are hardly the first -- are slow to name sellers they have had problems with. There is IMO no good reason to shield sellers from honest reports of problems.)

    As well as Pell Wall and Hermitage, perhaps consider PCW in Grasse, Liaison Carbone, Hexapus, the Hungarian (I think) shop xii posted, and the Russian shop if that one is possible to purchase from. Perhaps others can provide yet further suggestions. This Romanian shop is a home of fakes.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Yes, it does help.

    Way too cheap to possibly be genuine. Had the source been provided before a lot of time could have been saved.

    (For some reason many -- you are hardly the first -- are slow to name sellers they have had problems with. There is IMO no good reason to shield sellers from honest reports of problems.)

    As well as Pell Wall and Hermitage, perhaps consider PCW in Grasse, Liaison Carbone, Hexapus, the Hungarian (I think) shop xii posted, and the Russian shop if that one is possible to purchase from. Perhaps others can provide yet further suggestions. This Romanian shop is a home of fakes.
    Well, my intentions are not to protect the seller, as I'm not in any way affiliated with them.

    I knew from the start that something was not quite right.

    One of the most painful thing is that, for the moment, I fall in that category of people who don't have enough financial resources to buy from reputable/popular/well known/respectable sellers. So... having a great burning passion for perfumes/natural fragrances and especially to formulate/create them I've found this particular seller to be my closest shot for procuring ingredients for the formulations that I'm working at (even though yet I don't produce to sell).

  20. #20

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Quote Originally Posted by simple.user View Post
    Well, my intentions are not to protect the seller, as I'm not in any way affiliated with them.

    I knew from the start that something was not quite right.

    One of the most painful thing is that, for the moment, I fall in that category of people who don't have enough financial resources to buy from reputable/popular/well known/respectable sellers. So... having a great burning passion for perfumes/natural fragrances and especially to formulate/create them I've found this particular seller to be my closest shot for procuring ingredients for the formulations that I'm working at (even though yet I don't produce to sell).
    even the big fragrance houses hardly even formulate with rose absolutes. If you can't afford it that's life, but at least you learned a hopefully not that expensive lesson in attempting to get around budget restraints. If everyone is selling something for $100, and someone offers it for $25, then that's reason to question intensively.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    even the big fragrance houses hardly even formulate with rose absolutes. If you can't afford it that's life, but at least you learned a hopefully not that expensive lesson in attempting to get around budget restraints. If everyone is selling something for $100, and someone offers it for $25, then that's reason to question intensively.
    The thing is that I'm trying to be all about quality. Knowing this, I don't plan on going forward with this kind of things (cheap and low-grade ingredients).

    About the big fragrance houses, truth be told, whitout offending anyone, I don't really care about what others use (only when I want to know if they use naturals or not, or a specific ingredient, or at what percentage of the formula), as long as I know that what I'm using/going to use is quality and especially natural.

    They have their reasons, I have mine. Big fragrance houses usually try to sell worldwide and in big lots... for the moment I want to sell to a specific demographic.

    But hey... everything at its time. As it is sometimes said: "He will never leave you nor forsake you". (This I trust).

  22. #22

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Please let me know if you'd like the URL for an Indian company that produces reconstructions using natural isolates that, for the examples I purchased which included rose, were very nicely done and very worth the money.

    I do not wish to post it again because while for the vast majority of products they are clear that is what the products are, there is one where it is clear only from price, and abundantly clear, and that made it where at least one interpreted them and posted them as commiting fraud. I have not managed and cannot manage to communicate that incorrect statement with zero intent to deceive, arising from different word usage, is not fraud, for a thing to be a lie requires knowledge of falsehood, and the result is too much of a mess where I appear as promoting fraudsters, so never again.

    For some reason it is very difficult and often possible to communicate that sound and letter combinations have no inherent meaning but only assigned meanings, which can vary, and to understand others one must interpret according to how it seems they understand words. Very fundamental actually but in this matter most are absolutists assuming others must be intending to communicate according to the listener's understanding. I digress somewhat but this and related matters are a very widespread problem actually and many things are hard to overcome as a result.

    If you do want only absolute by traditional definition (consisting entirely of solvent extract of rose) then you would not need it as they do not offer that nor claim to. There is no way to get that except at high price

  23. #23

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Please let me know if you'd like the URL for an Indian company that produces reconstructions using natural isolates that, for the examples I purchased which included rose, were very nicely done and very worth the money.

    I do not wish to post it again because while for the vast majority of products they are clear that is what the products are, there is one where it is clear only from price, and abundantly clear, and that made it where at least one interpreted them and posted them as commiting fraud. I have not managed and cannot manage to communicate that incorrect statement with zero intent to deceive, arising from different word usage, is not fraud, for a thing to be a lie requires knowledge of falsehood, and the result is too much of a mess where I appear as promoting fraudsters, so never again.

    For some reason it is very difficult and often possible to communicate that sound and letter combinations have no inherent meaning but only assigned meanings, which can vary, and to understand others one must interpret according to how it seems they understand words. Very fundamental actually but in this matter most are absolutists assuming others must be intending to communicate according to the listener's understanding. I digress somewhat but this and related matters are a very widespread problem actually and many things are hard to overcome as a result.

    If you do want only absolute by traditional definition (consisting entirely of solvent extract of rose) then you would not need it as they do not offer that nor claim to. There is no way to get that except at high price
    Well, thank you.

    I would really like for that URL, as for the moment, I want to go with natural isolates and natural eo's and absolutes. So... in the end, all natural.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    In the end, I strongly believe that only when I'm going to have a true uncut/pure/not second-grade absolute of rose I'm going to find exactly a difference between this "gone off absolute" that I own and the true absolute.

    Although, I was curios if anyone encountered this problem of mine with any specific and given damask rose aboslute.

    And as I know that here on the basenotes forums are experienced and skilled people, with years of trading and working with eo's, isolates, aroma chemicals and even absolutes, I thought why not to share this incident that I had (still have), maybe someone knows exactly what it is, or getting very close to the truth.

    In the meantime the seller didn't yet responded to my message that I've sent them, I will let this weekend pass and wait and then maybe I'm going to call them, curious what they have to say.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Damask Rose Absolute Gone Off?!

    PM sent.




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