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  1. #61

    Default Re: Liatrix Absolute Substitute Has Been Fixed, But For Other PA "Absolutes," Don't Believe Your Ey

    Quote Originally Posted by mnitabach View Post
    So to be very clear, you are completely speculating, and you have no factual basis whatsoever to conclude that PA outsources to use prison labor? I want to be super clear on this point, because the claim is a strange and shocking one.
    You're right, I am completely speculating, and the mention was provocative.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Liatrix Absolute Substitute Has Been Fixed, But For Other PA "Absolutes," Don't Believe Your Ey

    Well, let's see (literally.)

    They claim 45 employees.

    Let's try Google Street View and see if what we see matches up to their official business address!

    Well, I am neither seeing any evidence supporting they have a business there of that size nor any evidence refuting.

    At least on image search, they claim these are of their facility:

    https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/lookasid...85743024791051
    https://www.bing.com/th?id=AFaL%2fbT...x360&pid=Local
    https://www.bing.com/th?id=AyAaxp5Bo...x360&pid=Local

    That first one, if true, doesn't look too hopeful to my materials being fresh.

    It is possible it is supposed to be of a winery though rather than of PA's facilities.

    There might be more pictures on Zuckbook but I don't have it so can't tell.

    As yet, outsourcing is proven neither true nor false.

    I do have to say that shipping is fast and appears to be from the claimed location, which would be difficult if outsourced.

    Perfumer's Apprentice is apparently an arm of another company, whose name I forget, but which has nothing to do with F&F. Pacific something-or-other.

    Willful refusal to have and follow effective QA procedures or do effective QC on the products seems an easier explanation and would be 100% sufficient.

    Alora also refuses or at least certainly has with regards to her "Hedione HC" and all her Sigma-Aldrich SDS's (which she would not say are there because you will get Sigma-Aldrich products, so I assume they are not.) And to hear her she is not outsourcing.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Liatrix Absolute Substitute Has Been Fixed, But For Other PA "Absolutes," Don't Believe Your Ey

    Your first link--picture sequence posted by PA but the captions don't claim they're PA's facility. "At Silverlake Winery", "At Norwest Ingredients", "At United States Capitol". Pretty sure they don't own all those.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Liatrix Absolute Substitute Has Been Fixed, But For Other PA "Absolutes," Don't Believe Your Ey

    LinkedIn refers to Perfumers Apprentice as a warehousing company with 1-10 employees, at 1319 Pacific Ave, Santa Cruz, California.

    That's more the size I imagined, compared to the 45 I was just told.

    Google turns up just a tiny shop for that address, not obviously Perfumer's Apprentice but not provably not, either: https://www.google.com/maps/place/13...4d-122.0262296

    That may, however, be what they call their boutique.

    That is not what I was looking for, though. I was looking for the larger company they apparently belong to. I think it is Pacific Coast Products, LLC but cannot now verify.

    Being part of a bigger corporate structure can result in selling out ethics. To misquote Brendan Frasier in Bedazzled, "You wanna do the right thing, you try to do the right thing, you go out there and try to give it 100%, but you can't do the right thing, Coach tells you not to..."

    EDIT: No, apparently that is the name Linda Andrews herself has for her empire such as it is: https://www.dnb.com/business-directo...ac6c367ec.html

  5. #65

    Default Re: Liatrix Absolute Substitute Has Been Fixed, But For Other PA "Absolutes," Don't Believe Your Ey

    Good point about the claimed location (I mean 200 Technology Circle, Scotts Valley--is that where shipping appears to be from?), and it looks plausible for the full operation, though it may be shared. https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/200-...y-CA/21664360/

    Edit again: and here's 170 across the road, another location listed against PA. So plenty of space together or either. https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/1556...tts-Valley-CA/
    Last edited by Alysoun; 14th May 2021 at 01:31 AM. Reason: location clarified

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Liatrix Absolute Substitute Has Been Fixed, But For Other PA "Absolutes," Don't Believe Your Ey

    Doesn’t California have the strictest laws in the country ? Especially dealing with a company that deals in flavor ingredients? I mean wouldn’t that set any company running to right wrongs?

  7. #67

    Default Re: Liatrix Absolute Substitute Has Been Fixed, But For Other PA "Absolutes," Don't Believe Your Ey

    Clearly not.

    As for their flavors, the ones I ordered had none really, so nothing to regulate.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Liatrix Absolute Substitute Has Been Fixed, But For Other PA "Absolutes," Don't Believe Your Ey

    Quote Originally Posted by Alysoun View Post
    What I mean is, if the materials are managed in one place by one set of people, and the paper trail is managed somewhere else, QA is not such a simple process. The wholesaler tells the company they've delivered batches of this and that to the processing location, the company creates inventory records, but isn't in a position to make routine physical checks. I don't know, the results say to me that PA's standard processes are very different to Christine's. I don't get the impression that it's just a lot of individual slip-ups, which to a minor extent can happen anywhere.
    Thank you for clarifying that you have absolutely zero evidence or plausible reason to think that PA is using prison labor. The original assertion was quite shocking & bizarre, and it's important to have this now unambiguously clarified.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Liatrix Absolute Substitute Has Been Fixed, But For Other PA "Absolutes," Don't Believe Your Ey

    So, I have purposefully stayed out of this conversation.
    I will add however, that the PA Scotts Valley complex of buildings that they occupy is quite large.
    Maybe 1/3 to 1/2 as large as Vigon on the other side of the country, but I was not given the full tour at Vigon, while yes, at PA.
    Flavors comprise 10X-15X the business sales as fragrance raw materials, and a considerably larger portion of their facilities complex.
    'Complex', to say that there isn't just one address for their many buildings.
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  10. #70

    Default Re: Liatrix Absolute Substitute Has Been Fixed, But For Other PA "Absolutes," Don't Believe Your Ey

    It was rather a detour, but it appeared an attempt at a "maybe they are trying their best but there could be an insurmountable problem such as this we don't know about" hypothesis, or trying to find benefit of the doubt, which is good. One should always try thoroughly to see if an obstacle could be a cause rather than willful decisions to do wrong by customers.

    However the answer to such as these bogus "Absolutes," the Kharismal, the SDS policy etc is much more simply explained as very clearly not doing their best by us, on ongoing basis, and knowingly so. And besides this I have clear proof they know exactly what they are doing re the bogus "Absolutes" and choose to keep selling them with the same listings which would have the buyer thinking they're the real deal.

    Thank you for the flavor information! A big part of wanting to check any addresses was that 45 employees sounded on the order of 10 times more than I would ever have thought for the fragrance operation. That explains that.

    Perhaps I just had bad luck with the flavors. The four that I bought were all hopeless, to say the least I do far better myself, but there seems no way one could build a flavor operation as big as theirs is if they are all that poor.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 14th May 2021 at 03:40 PM.

  11. #71

    Default Re: Liatrix Absolute Substitute Has Been Fixed, But For Other PA "Absolutes," Don't Believe Your Ey

    Hmm, a possible explanation on your "Orange Flower Absolute," though another explanation could be simply the lack of ethical integrity which PA has said JDW has.

    The SDS for this as given by JDW is unusual among SMPE SDS's in that it actually assigns a CAS number for the product itself, rather than to constituents only. Namely, 8030-28-2.

    That number can belong to Orange Flower Absolute but it also apparently belongs to Orange Leaf Absolute, which one would think could be a far cheaper material and apparently liquid: https://www.parchem.com/chemical-sup...te-011323.aspx

    Perhaps the product is another "blend," this time all within the same CAS number and so able to be given a CAS number corresponding to Orange Flower Absolute. This is unlike for example the Rose product, to which SMPE gave no CAS number at all let alone one corresponding to any Rose extract anywhere in the SDS, not even as a component.

    The weaker performance and lack of Orange Flower (Bitter) Absolute character you observe might be due to that.

    A hypothesis only.

    Either way, bogus deal.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Liatrix Absolute Substitute Has Been Fixed, But For Other PA "Absolutes," Don't Believe Your Ey

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    And the weaker performance and lack of Orange Flower (Bitter) Absolute character you observe could be due to that.
    Sniffed the test strips again this morning right now....

    The Lib Nat Absolute is kicking really strong still, almost as strong as the initial dip 2 days ago....as one would expect.
    The SMP/JDW "Abs-type" has already died in scent and the paper strip tip is now just white with hardly a trace of coloration. It barely lasted 48 hours.
    ...bathing in perfumes...
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  13. #73
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    Default Re: Liatrix Absolute Substitute Has Been Fixed, But For Other PA "Absolutes," Don't Believe Your Ey

    Quote Originally Posted by Bkkorn View Post
    Sniffed the test strips again this morning right now....

    The Lib Nat Absolute is kicking really strong still, almost as strong as the initial dip 2 days ago....as one would expect.
    The SMP/JDW "Abs-type" has already died in scent and the paper strip tip is now just white with hardly a trace of coloration. It barely lasted 48 hours.
    Dude probably the materials used to recreate it weren’t even full concentrate, I hope you can just lie to yourself and say you spent on it “just to see”.
    This is really messed up man.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Liatrix Absolute Substitute Has Been Fixed, But For Other PA "Absolutes," Don't Believe Your Ey

    Quote Originally Posted by Casper_grassy View Post
    Dude probably the materials used to recreate it weren’t even full concentrate, I hope you can just lie to yourself and say you spent on it “just to see”.
    This is really messed up man.
    Yup! I saw their offering of a "Orange Flower Absolute that is manufactured by SAS MATIÈRES PREMIÈRES ESSENTIELLES. It is 100% Pure & Natural Grade" at a price that was way too good to be true. And I bought a small sample to test it, and confirmed that this product is false.

    It really comes down to advertising a product correctly and setting correct expectations to the consumer. Some perfumer hobbyists might buy this material and not know the difference and think its a legit absolute....but someone has to 'buy, try & compare' to shed some light on what's really going on.
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  15. #75
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    Default Re: Liatrix Absolute Substitute Has Been Fixed, But For Other PA "Absolutes," Don't Believe Your Ey

    Quote Originally Posted by Bkkorn View Post
    Yup! I saw their offering of a "Orange Flower Absolute that is manufactured by SAS MATIÈRES PREMIÈRES ESSENTIELLES. It is 100% Pure & Natural Grade" at a price that was way too good to be true. And I bought a small sample to test it, and confirmed that this product is false.

    It really comes down to advertising a product correctly and setting correct expectations to the consumer. Some perfumer hobbyists might buy this material and not know the difference and think its a legit absolute....but someone has to 'buy, try & compare' to shed some light on what's really going on.
    I can def recall getting items that did have SDS' from SMPE (though at this point, I may not even know what cashmeran smells likes lol) and the product was fine, I do apologize for really not remembering.

    It's funny you mention advertising it correctly, it is such a simple thought and I can't imagine it not being a simple execution. You are absolutely right that someone who doesn't know is getting beyond played and it is a sad thing.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Liatrix Absolute Substitute Has Been Fixed, But For Other PA "Absolutes," Don't Believe Your Ey

    Can you imagine having this same conversation about any other product type or industry? Like cosmetics, food, etc. And with IFRA compliance becoming more widely adopted, how is anyone able to confidently use materials purchased from PA for anything other than personal use as a hobbyist? I'm glad to hear that they do have multiple large facilities, but that doesn't negate the fact that they do not ship out the legitimate (and expensive) products that we think we are ordering. So disappointing


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