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  1. #1

    Default Depth & Complexity

    I know this comes with practice and experimentation. But lately I have been buying up some professional fragrances, just to see what is out there and get my nose a little more familiar with what a complete scent should smell like. There is a level of depth here that I dont even begin to approach with my blends. What are your secrets?! I remember reading someone (maybe Paul?) saying its typically accomplished through a variety of musks?

    I know there wont be one silver bullet answer here, Im just impressed by how "deep" some of these fragrances are, and how thin mine smell by comparison.

    Any tips would be appreciated

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    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    Which fragrances did you buy?

    Concentration makes a large difference. I don’t mean it as if to raise the concentration just because something is thin. Take a look at your most recent formula. Just look at it and see what’s in there, or even better, see what’s NOT in there.

    If in a formula I’m going for something violet, and I use a ionone, b ionone and MIG, in whatever ratio, do I get a violet? Yes. Will it have an “it” factor? Hell no. So take a step back and think what could help me add some complexity to it whilst keeping it obviously violet. A first thought could be to use naturals, depending on direction, you can play around with your choices there, you can add vetiver or benzoin maybe and carry that into your base, if your going mossy, fresh, or chypre the vetiver will be great, and remember it’s just to add a nuance. The benzoin to can take you into an ambery oriental route. If you want to increase the floral aspect maybe some jasmine abs/base, ylang or heliotrope. Again, decide where you’re want it to go and take it there.

    I can’t really speak on most contemporary fragrances, going into a sephora and smelling things, seldom am I impressed.

    You are correct, choice of musks plays a massive factor in where you can go. Don’t add ethylene brassylate because it tends to “work” with everything. Why not try something better, in the example from above, I think romandolide would be a better fit strictly for the violet, and it pairs great with ionones.

    You should begin to look into creating your own bases for certain things. They may not work in all applications, but if you already have a formula for a base that you can refer to you can adjust accordingly. Making bases can help to add complexity assuming the base is in fact complex.

    I had replaced indole with skatole to an orange blossom base I had been working on and added a touch of Elemi, let’s just say I was very happy with the outcome. I can now use the base either in it’s entirety or just constituents of it, even if I slap it in at 1-2%, on top of something else in a formula the depth will increase.

    On the flip side, I happen to really like nasomatto for it’s ridiculous simplicity, every fragrance is either 70% musks, or a couple of sandalwood materials on a bed of norlimbanol and cashmeran. And even as simple as they are, they have depth to the smell, and perform well. So you can also say that just using good quality aroma chems can create something nice, but it must be well if not perfectly blended.

    Like my boy Phillip Plein, NO LIMITS! (Always on my grind)

  3. #3

    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    Quote Originally Posted by Casper_grassy View Post
    Which fragrances did you buy?

    Concentration makes a large difference. I don’t mean it as if to raise the concentration just because something is thin. Take a look at your most recent formula. Just look at it and see what’s in there, or even better, see what’s NOT in there.

    If in a formula I’m going for something violet, and I use a ionone, b ionone and MIG, in whatever ratio, do I get a violet? Yes. Will it have an “it” factor? Hell no. So take a step back and think what could help me add some complexity to it whilst keeping it obviously violet. A first thought could be to use naturals, depending on direction, you can play around with your choices there, you can add vetiver or benzoin maybe and carry that into your base, if your going mossy, fresh, or chypre the vetiver will be great, and remember it’s just to add a nuance. The benzoin to can take you into an ambery oriental route. If you want to increase the floral aspect maybe some jasmine abs/base, ylang or heliotrope. Again, decide where you’re want it to go and take it there.

    I can’t really speak on most contemporary fragrances, going into a sephora and smelling things, seldom am I impressed.

    You are correct, choice of musks plays a massive factor in where you can go. Don’t add ethylene brassylate because it tends to “work” with everything. Why not try something better, in the example from above, I think romandolide would be a better fit strictly for the violet, and it pairs great with ionones.

    You should begin to look into creating your own bases for certain things. They may not work in all applications, but if you already have a formula for a base that you can refer to you can adjust accordingly. Making bases can help to add complexity assuming the base is in fact complex.

    I had replaced indole with skatole to an orange blossom base I had been working on and added a touch of Elemi, let’s just say I was very happy with the outcome. I can now use the base either in it’s entirety or just constituents of it, even if I slap it in at 1-2%, on top of something else in a formula the depth will increase.

    On the flip side, I happen to really like nasomatto for it’s ridiculous simplicity, every fragrance is either 70% musks, or a couple of sandalwood materials on a bed of norlimbanol and cashmeran. And even as simple as they are, they have depth to the smell, and perform well. So you can also say that just using good quality aroma chems can create something nice, but it must be well if not perfectly blended.

    Like my boy Phillip Plein, NO LIMITS! (Always on my grind)
    I appreciate this.

    When you talk about bases, that doesnt necessarily mean "base notes" right? or does it? And how would a base be different from an accord in that case?

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    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamE View Post
    I appreciate this.

    When you talk about bases, that doesnt necessarily mean "base notes" right? or does it? And how would a base be different from an accord in that case?
    No, base notes is just to categorize a duration.

    A base can be looked at as a reconstruction of something natural, or the like with an idea attached to it. You can look at IFF's Oliffacs and Givadauns Givco's. The idea aspect would be like "Medicinal Honeysuckle" for some reason.

    An accord to me isn't like, PEA, geraniol and citronellol, that's just an impression, as is the a ionone, b ionone and MIG example from above, an impression.

    Again, all opinion, but Labdanum, vanillin, methyl diantilis, benzoin and bergamot is an accord. The mellis accord, the grojsman accord, an opoponax accord etc. I guess simplest is to say a blend of things to create a new.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    I really don't know what the correct usage is.

    To me, a "base" is useful in (ordinarily) multiple applications, and is a specific composition having exact amounts. If you change the amounts, now it's a different base. The main aspect is that it has a job to do, to act as a particular material itself of a desired nature whether that might be like a floral absolute, or leather, or anything. And it's a particular exact formula that ordinarily could be used within many formulas.

    In contrast, an "accord" is a pleasing combination giving an effect, but (other than PA and CP using the term that way) there's no implication of being a go-to combination for multiple uses, and while some accords are exact compositions, there are also accords that are loose in terms of amounts, qualitative rather than exactly quantitative. E.g., the "labdanum/vanillin accord" is still that accord over a considerable range, whereas say the Amber 8300 Base would not be Amber 8300 should amounts be changed at all.

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    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    Wow Casper- thanks for the amazing post!
    I think bases are either in the base or top to bottom. Accords can be just top(fleeting) or mid.
    I , too , have asked how do they get a good oerfume to do that?
    And I, too , am not impressed with most that I smell commercially.
    I keep going on and on about Strangelove and in particular, meltmyheart.
    In the spirit of discovery, I bought bits of oud. I have been testing them on strips, in my shop, and of course I have other materials floating around in there too. So when I enter now- I get the same complex deep vibe that Strangelove or other not bad perfumes give-the complexity of the oud is lending a perfume vibe to the air. Ofcourse getting the proportions right is always the difficulty. I do believe it would be possible to have a few materials perfume that was deep and complex, perhaps even made from just acs, but that is a feat for a maestro .

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    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    More prominent featuring of one or more natural ingredients, maybe?

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    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    I really don't know what the correct usage is.

    To me, a "base" is useful in (ordinarily) multiple applications, and is a specific composition having exact amounts. If you change the amounts, now it's a different base. The main aspect is that it has a job to do, to act as a particular material itself of a desired nature whether that might be like a floral absolute, or leather, or anything. And it's a particular exact formula that ordinarily could be used within many formulas.

    In contrast, an "accord" is a pleasing combination giving an effect, but (other than PA and CP using the term that way) there's no implication of being a go-to combination for multiple uses, and while some accords are exact compositions, there are also accords that are loose in terms of amounts, qualitative rather than exactly quantitative. E.g., the "labdanum/vanillin accord" is still that accord over a considerable range, whereas say the Amber 8300 Base would not be Amber 8300 should amounts be changed at all.
    Thank you for wording it better, they can work in many applications, but it does at times depend on the context. Or it could be just in terms of personal bases I would make. The formulas I do have for bases are great but sometimes I do have things in there I may not want on every occasion. I do find bases different from recons, my rose contains civet, real rose does not.

    I get what you mean though in terms of quantities changing therefore changing said base, it is just how I work, referring to something I’ve made and know the smell of but change per formula on what’s needed.

    Realistically, if one would like the idea of a rose and jasmine in a formulation, you could just add pea and benzyl acetate.

    All this perfumer jargon papa casper no like

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    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolieo View Post
    Wow Casper- thanks for the amazing post!
    I think bases are either in the base or top to bottom. Accords can be just top(fleeting) or mid.
    I , too , have asked how do they get a good oerfume to do that?
    And I, too , am not impressed with most that I smell commercially.
    I keep going on and on about Strangelove and in particular, meltmyheart.
    In the spirit of discovery, I bought bits of oud. I have been testing them on strips, in my shop, and of course I have other materials floating around in there too. So when I enter now- I get the same complex deep vibe that Strangelove or other not bad perfumes give-the complexity of the oud is lending a perfume vibe to the air. Ofcourse getting the proportions right is always the difficulty. I do believe it would be possible to have a few materials perfume that was deep and complex, perhaps even made from just acs, but that is a feat for a maestro .
    You’re very welcome!
    Where did you get the oud?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    Quote Originally Posted by Casper_grassy View Post
    I get what you mean though in terms of quantities changing therefore changing said base, it is just how I work, referring to something I’ve made and know the smell of but change per formula on what’s needed.
    I certainly revise my bases as well on many occasions, I suppose the difference is between the ideal world or at least the world of the expert professional Perfumer, where a base could be the product of a tremendous amount of very skilled work and for the most part is best not messed with, and the practical world of the amateur.

    But ideally, if I've mixed something up and considered it done, it would be useful for many things without needing adjustment, being ready to be used as is.

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    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    I certainly revise my bases as well on many occasions, I suppose the difference is between the ideal world or at least the world of the expert professional Perfumer, where a base could be the product of a tremendous amount of very skilled work and for the most part is best not messed with, and the practical world of the amateur.

    But ideally, if I've mixed something up and considered it done, it would be useful for many things without needing adjustment, being ready to be used as is.
    Our sad practical world lol.
    I think I may just be a bit too particular per new idea/formula. I always give my finished bases a shot, but depending on the eval if changes have to be made, then off to the calculator I go.

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    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    AdamE. I think that you may be helped by studying some GCMS results to learn about the complexity issues.
    Next, following the simplistic path of JCE, or pentachords, or eight chords, won't lead to complexity.

    It's not just musks, but musks plus naturals, and maybe some bases too. It's also about synergies.
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    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    I'm not sure if this is related, but I have noticed that even with very simple 8-10 line sketches, sometimes a pretty slight change in the ratio of two components (maybe only a change of 20%) can be the difference in my notes btwn "smells nice but thin & uninspiring" to "wow this smells like real perfume".

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    I obviously agree that using more materials and more complex mixtures Ė naturals and bases Ė will bring complexity to the final perfume. There is great art in balancing a large number of substances in a way that synergizes and brings beauty out of all of them.

    That doesn't mean that octachords, pentachords, or even three-note accords won't lead to complexity. It will be very hard to construct thin accords like that that will in themselves feel very complex. Still, they are usually not meant to be used on their own, as a full perfume. A combination of 3 such accords, for example, can already be a very complex olfactory landscape.

    The reason for working on smaller groups and then repeatedly combining these groups into larger and larger ones, as Jean Carles taught us, is that it's more technically manageable for most people, and therefore can be done with greater accuracy and success.

    As silver bullets go, it is, of course, mainly marketing talk, but there is some truth in it as well. Certain molecules are said (usually by the ones selling them) to bring depth and complexity to a perfume composition. When used correctly, some of them actually do.

    Firmenich say Exaltolide "adds depth and roundness to a wide variety of creations", I believe many of us here will agree. With Cetalox, one of my personal favorites, "enhanced richness, warmth and depth can be achieved at lower dosages" (Firmenich). Myrcene (another one I love) "is used to add a spicy, refreshing note and added complexity to citrus and spice colognes and fragrances" (Pell Wall). Indole is believed by many to bring special depth and complexity to florals, but I guess it's too old to receive marketing superlatives from anyone. Ambrinol "can be used in all perfume types to add depth, complexity and texture; in particular to woody, oriental and floral creations" (Firmenich).

    Probably not the same as complexity, but Iso E Super is "Used to impart fullness and subtle strength to fragrances" (IFF) and "gives body and a thickening, velvety quality to a fragrance. Used in simple blends it can help almost any material to 'smell more like itself' enhancing the odour quality" (Pell Wall)

    Nuezate is described by Bedoukian as "useful for adding complexity and elegance to fine fragrance compositions", which can probably also be said for many other nutty materials and pyrazine. Like Sulfurol, Earthy Pyrazine, etc.

    Safraleine "exhibits warm, powerful, leathery and tobacco facets but its complexity also reveals characteristics of spices reminiscent of natural saffron, enriched by rose ketone-like floral aspects." (Givaudan)

    Labienoxime "can add complexity and realism to peach accords ... or to pineapple accords" (Pell Wall). Acetate Allyl Phenoxy is "also very useful in chocolate accords for added complexity and as a boost for citrus, strawberry and other fruity notes" (Pell Wall). Guavanate "Excels in mango and other tropical fruit compositions, adding complexity and depth." (Bedoukian). Romilat can "contribute complexity to rose notes and other florals". (Pell Wall).

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    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    For my taste the realm of complexity and depth , in short, "thikness", is that of natural oils.
    Oakmoss and oud, for example, but also a good patchouli or a good davana or a good vetiver or even a simple good bergamot or fir balsam.
    Even perfumes can give these 2 sensations, but few.
    And I prefer brands that make perfumes like this (many Guerlain classics, for example).
    Too many brands make "light" perfumes, which the mainstream likes so much, especially young people.
    And maybe that's why I don't like Ellena's greens or Chanel's flowery classics, I don't feel "thick".
    And the same happens to me with several Creeds. De gustibus.
    However yes, put essential oils, put basic ingredients (musks, etc.), put more ingredients in the accords to make them more complex, put many ingredients in the perfume, etc.
    These things in my opinion give depth and complexity ....
    my two cents....

  16. #16

    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    I know this will vary by A LOT, but how many materials, ballpark, are commercial houses using to create that complexity and depth AdamE is referring to? Is it closer to 15? 50? More?

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    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    This is the result of several days of work to construct a workable starting point of a men's scent base, from a GCMS of reliable quality.
    One of which I did not endeavor to copy. I changed many of the notes to the client's request, but I did use the basic structure to pull things out of, and replace.
    But when all done, the performance was still lacking, as it was in the original scent. This needed a lot more work to increase the performance to the point requested by the client.
    But the combined use of naturals and synthetics carries the point of marketplace mass market complexity, even if actually needing more deepening and complexity to improve the performance.

    Oh, I may have later combined the Geraniol, Citronellol, and Geranyl Ethyl Ether, into a Geranium EO.

    Identification
    (3Z)-Hexenol
    Dipropylene glycol
    Myrtle EO
    Bergamot
    Lavandin Grosso / Abrialis
    Dihydromyrcenol
    (3Z)-Hexenyl methyl carbonate
    trans-Triplal
    Linalool
    Dihydrolinalool
    Grapefruit acetal
    Linalool ethyl ether
    Ethyl linalool
    Ethyl maltol
    Citronellol
    Geraniol
    Linalyl acetate
    Dihydrolinalyl acetate
    Geranyl ethyl ether
    Vanillin
    Coumarin
    Ethyl Vanillin
    (E)-α-Isomethyl-ionone
    (E)-β-Ionone
    Ambercore
    α-Irone
    cis-α-Irone
    cis-γ-Irone
    γ-Undecalactone
    Iso E Super
    Guaiacwood
    Cedarwood, Chinese
    Cedryl methyl ether
    cis-Timberol
    Patchouli, Chinese
    Cadinol
    Methyl dihydrojasmonate
    TEC, Triethyl citrate
    Ambroxan
    Benzyl benzoate
    Karanal
    2-Ethylhexyl salicylate
    Vetiver Chinese
    Galaxolide
    Benzyl salicylate
    Isoambrettolide
    Palmitic acid
    Amberketal
    Ethylene brassylate
    Acetic acid
    β-Isomethyl Ionone
    unknowns
    DPG
    Paul Kiler
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    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

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    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    Casper
    I got them from hermitage- it is perhaps the topic for another post , but I am moved by the ouds I got
    I didn’t expect to feel this way
    I have some agar wood from Eden botanicals and cp,-and I like them, a lot even - but I would say there is absolutely no comparison to what I got from Hermitage
    I am not a connoisseur (you gathered!) but these materials had a profound effect on me
    1) the different notes or aromas they emit, are there all at the same time- it is as if oud is a cloud of aromas
    2) the cloud keeps them separate, then merges them into a novel aroma- I would say a perfume, but it feels more intimate
    3) one of them enveloped my heart- I am used to oils having a sort of brain arousal- but this was an emotion arousal
    They last as a complex material- forever
    I sampled the Laos, Cambodia, and the Vietnamese.
    Idk about oud- maybe there is better, etc out there, but I was very happy to not have to figure out where to go considering I can’t afford the ante on most places- so I can get very very little- this way it isn’t much, but it’s enough for me to mess with for awhile.
    Every time I go into my shop it smells very sophisticated!

  19. #19

    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    [QUOTE=pkiler;5172035]This is the result of several days of work to construct a workable starting point of a men's scent base, from a GCMS of reliable quality.
    .


    Base, meaning this is only a portion of the finished product? Thanks for the insight!

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    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    "Base, meaning this is only a portion of the finished product?"

    This was the GC results for the finished market fragrance, by a mass market house.

    I USED it as a base to work from, changing notes out and dropping in new ones. New Topnotes, new middle notes, and massively changed and ooomphed the bottom for more power and performance... Original just didn't have the oooomph that client wanted. A couple of people who know the original scent said, the client was quite right to demand better performance from my scent.
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    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

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    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolieo View Post
    Casper
    I got them from hermitage- it is perhaps the topic for another post , but I am moved by the ouds I got
    I didnít expect to feel this way
    I have some agar wood from Eden botanicals and cp,-and I like them, a lot even - but I would say there is absolutely no comparison to what I got from Hermitage
    I am not a connoisseur (you gathered!) but these materials had a profound effect on me
    1) the different notes or aromas they emit, are there all at the same time- it is as if oud is a cloud of aromas
    2) the cloud keeps them separate, then merges them into a novel aroma- I would say a perfume, but it feels more intimate
    3) one of them enveloped my heart- I am used to oils having a sort of brain arousal- but this was an emotion arousal
    They last as a complex material- forever
    I sampled the Laos, Cambodia, and the Vietnamese.
    Idk about oud- maybe there is better, etc out there, but I was very happy to not have to figure out where to go considering I canít afford the ante on most places- so I can get very very little- this way it isnít much, but itís enough for me to mess with for awhile.
    Every time I go into my shop it smells very sophisticated!

    Yes you are a connoisseur!
    By how you speak about them they sound lovely. I just looked them up, Iíd hope they smell beautiful with those price tags lol
    Iím going to pick a little up, they seem so interesting. I also had the agarwood from eden, which was nice but more on the barnyardy side me.
    There probably is better for those who live where it is commonplace. Itís funny how Iíve watched a couple of videos of many many people from those regions are just like ďyeah I had oud my whole lifeĒ and weíre over here with brut and hibiscus potpourri.

    Thank you so much.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    I find that depth usually comes from my base notes. Which are mostly woods and musks. A really nice wood isolate or material is super useful. I’m wearing something i made right now thats worn down into a sexy complex black agar, oakmoss, and slight fruity nuance from fructalate and applelide. Smells amazing mostly because of the black agar.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Depth & Complexity

    Quote Originally Posted by Big L View Post
    That doesn't mean that octachords, pentachords, or even three-note accords won't lead to complexity. It will be very hard to construct thin accords like that that will in themselves feel very complex. Still, they are usually not meant to be used on their own, as a full perfume. A combination of 3 such accords, for example, can already be a very complex olfactory landscape.
    I received some samples from Paul Kiler, and I am absolutely humbled. I felt I should revise that sentence to:

    A combination of 20 such accords, for example, can already be a very complex olfactory landscape.
    I now understand that when this man talks about complexity, he means it on a completely different level. I imagined a landscape picture in watercolors. His creations are like bookshelves full of thick books with such pictures on every page.




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