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  1. #1

    Default Where to buy Bornafix in US

    I'm looking through my usual sites for some bornafix (woody propanol) and can't locate any.
    Does anyone have a lead on where to find it? I see it at Pell Wall, but figured shipping would be insane.
    I'm not looking for a large amount.

    I would also take advice on a substitute, I'm leaning Atlas Cedar, but have never smelled Bornafix, so I'm just guessing.

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    A websearch for:

    Bornafix cart

    turns up that the new Creating Perfume has it, or at least they have something they are selling under that branded name. Whether it is actually the IFF product or a generic woody propanol would be a faith issue.

    The fact that CP shows an IFF SDS doesn't change that because, unlike at PSH, at the new Creating Perfume there is no policy in place that SDS's must match up to product with regards to manufacturer etc.

    Chances are it's fine. I simply don't want to say in an unqualified way or imply that it is genuine Bornafix.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 8th May 2021 at 02:57 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    Thank you.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    You're very welcome!

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    i think you will feel disappointed with Bornafix...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    Different people smell stuff differently (particularly it seems woody molecules like bornafix), but for me it remained nearly undetectable even after weeks of study on the smelling strip. Whether it might have had a bigger impact on blends is something I never tested, because it seemed like a low potential reward experiment. So maybe I'm missing something amazing?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    It doesn't prove a point, but I notice that after subtracting IFF demos and a couple of patent example formulas, TGSC shows only about two formulas using it.

    The great majority of AC's are used in very cheap products, often functionals, and serve well for these applications and price points and so are produced in quantity.

    But as to which items Perfumers generally don't take seriously for fine fragrance, but know exist really for other purposes, that's a mystery for us here short of seeing what we can determine for ourselves from trials.

    I've never bought Bornafix myself so can't say if it is likely one of those or not.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    Here is a simple blend to help you see what differences occur when using Bornafix, which I happen to like, it's similar to hedione in odor strength.

    Dihydro Ionone Beta 40
    Vanillin 10

    Now add Bornafix

    DIB 40
    Vanillin 10
    Bornafix 10

    When smelling the first blend, it's nice, tobacco vanille/pure havane/tobacco reserve like, though there is an obvious separation of vanillin and DIB, you quite easily smell both individually. For the blend with Bornafix added there is a bridge that has been gapped, it brings out more of a woody nuance of the DIB and adds an amber touch and then sharpens the sweetness of the vanillin, I happen to not like the extra sweetness IMO, though maybe if you were to use 8 vanillin and 6 bornafix, this could be fixed. There's much else to be said that has changed. But I just wanted to show it's use, which it is a rather useful material.

    In my experience as much as I can recall, most low odor profile materials seem to really make up for their lack in smell in modifying and changing a formula, obviously for the better with proper balance.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    This is a great experiment! I'll definitely try it!

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    Quote Originally Posted by mnitabach View Post
    This is a great experiment! I'll definitely try it!
    Yeah it'll help to get a better understanding of the uses for bornafix (I'm also a bit of a fanboy for it)

    I went and sprayed a strip with "Pure Havane", don't know if you smelled it, but strangely I think I'm onto something with those materials. It could be trimofix though, but there's definitely a bed of IES and some ethyl maltol, and maybe ethyl vanillin. I never realized how sharp it is, so I added some Lilial, and coumarin and it smells like 30-40% close to it, which doesn't seem like a lot, but on a whim, not bad if I do say so myself.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    Quote Originally Posted by Casper_grassy View Post
    Here is a simple blend to help you see what differences occur when using Bornafix, which I happen to like, it's similar to hedione in odor strength.

    Dihydro Ionone Beta 40
    Vanillin 10

    Now add Bornafix

    DIB 40
    Vanillin 10
    Bornafix 10

    When smelling the first blend, it's nice, tobacco vanille/pure havane/tobacco reserve like, though there is an obvious separation of vanillin and DIB, you quite easily smell both individually. For the blend with Bornafix added there is a bridge that has been gapped, it brings out more of a woody nuance of the DIB and adds an amber touch and then sharpens the sweetness of the vanillin, I happen to not like the extra sweetness IMO, though maybe if you were to use 8 vanillin and 6 bornafix, this could be fixed. There's much else to be said that has changed. But I just wanted to show it's use, which it is a rather useful material.

    In my experience as much as I can recall, most low odor profile materials seem to really make up for their lack in smell in modifying and changing a formula, obviously for the better with proper balance.
    OK, just tried it out. You're explanation smells exactly correct. The blend w/o bornafix smells like the superposition of two distinct scents, while w the bornafix like a single seamless accord.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    A good but not as quick to answer question would be whether that difference also appears when the vanillin and dihydro ionone beta are in a full formula, taking up only a small part of the formula.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    Also interesting about this little accord is that even without the bornafix, it is quite reminiscent of cedar, yet that cedar effect is accentuated by the bornafix.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    Which reminds me -- only semi-relevantly but at least a little -- I need to get my hands on genuine Vertofix Coeur, not Vertofix Coeur Sales or regular Vertofix or a generic.

    For sure it would have to come from overseas. Nothing sold retail under that name in the US actually is.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    Pell Wall asserts that what they currently have in stock as MCK is Vertofix Coeur.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    Thank you, Mike!

    But so far as I know Chris does not follow the new CP's and PA's disreputable practice of sometimes or often putting up SDS's belonging to products different than you'll receive, justifying it on a theory you have no basis for expecting to see documentation necessarily matching the product you will get.

    Instead, so far as I know, with Pell Wall, as with PSH, what you see is what you get.

    And that, in this case, is Vertofix Coeur Sales, a different product which totally or essentially totally lacks the prized acetyl thujopsene content unique to Vertofix Coeur proper.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    Interesting. I wasn't aware of that subtlety of branding.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    And it makes a good example of why the SDS's indeed must, properly, belong to the specific material most recently received, that being verified each and every time before entering new material into inventory.

    Not rocket science. There is zero excuse not to.

    The customer absolutely needs to see source documentation genuinely belonging to the material offered, to be able to see things like this. Otherwise he or she will plug a different Tonquitone into their product and be totally surprised at the wreckage, or a different Vertofix product and never be able to find evidence of what happened, etc.

    Saying the obvious one would hope, but apparently wrongly.

    It's amazing to me one can grow to a 45 employee business (I am told) with such neglect to or even defiance of basic QA.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    And it makes a good example of why the SDS's indeed must, properly, belong to the specifuc material most recently received, that being verified each and every time before entering new material into inventory.

    Not rocket science.

    The customer absolutely needs to see source documentation genuinely belonging to the material offered, to be able to see things like this. Otherwise he or she will plug a different Tonquitone into their product and be totally surprised at the wreckage, or a different Vertofix product and never be able to figure what happened, etc.

    Saying the obvious one would hope, but apparently wrongly.
    Just to chime in here going off what we were talking about the other day, I was going to purchase my ambermor crystals and guess who got a fin Kao sds for ambroxan?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    They claimed just now it's been Ambroxan for years and they were just mistakenly showing an SDS for a product that isn't actually Ambroxan, from a source they weren't buying from. For 5 years.

    PA also says their SDS's don't actually mean you have to be getting that product, they are provided only for safety information, not to document source. So inherently, getting that Kao SDS now really doesn't mean anything except those are your hazards and measures to deal with them.

    They changed this SDS a couple of days ago on my mentioning in an email on something else that Walsh "Ambroxan" isn't Ambroxan (as you know, they had a Walsh "Ambroxan" SDS up until now.)
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 10th May 2021 at 01:02 PM.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    They claimed it's been Ambroxan for years, they were just mistakenly showing an SDS for a product that isn't actually Ambroxan, from a source they weren't buying from. For 5 years.

    PA also says their SDS's don't actually mean you have to be getting that product, they are provided only for safety information, not to document source. So inherently, getting that Kao SDS now really doesn't mean anything except those are your hazards and measures to deal with them.

    They changed this SDS a couple of days ago on my mentioning in an email on something else that Walsh "Ambroxan" isn't Ambroxan (as you know, they had a Walsh "Ambroxan" SDS up until now.)
    This is insane man, so was it actually ambroxan the whole time?

    Who knows wth im using

  22. #22

    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    It would be purely a faith issue as to what it was. There is certainly nothing in place to have confidence.

    I am not saying it didn't happen, but I am saying it would be weird and very negligent to decide in 2016 that Walsh was selling misbranded product that wasn't really Ambroxan and so go find and switch over to the real thing, BUT still keep the discredited Walsh SDS up there FOR THE NEXT FIVE YEARS.

    It's a faith question whether it was Ambroxan all this time or not.

    It was also a faith issue on the "Absolutes." In those instances faith was not deserved. On this one, maybe it is, there really is no way to say.

    That's what happens when not having or not following procedures to assure products are as shown.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Where to buy Bornafix in US

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    It would be purely a faith issue as to what it was. There is certainly nothing in place to have confidence.

    I am not saying it didn't happen, but I am saying it would be weird and very negligent to decide in 2016 that Walsh was selling misbranded product that wasn't really Ambroxan and so go find and switch over to the real thing, BUT still keep the discredited Walsh SDS up there FOR THE NEXT FIVE YEARS.

    It's a faith question whether it was Ambroxan all this time or not.

    It was also a faith issue on the "Absolutes." In those instances faith was not deserved. On this one, maybe it is, there really is no way to say.

    That's what happens when not having or not following procedures to assure products are as shown.
    Well 5 years flies sometimes sigh

    Its really out of whack




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