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  1. #1

    Default Gun powder accord

    Hello fellows perfumers,

    Any idea of which molecule(s) to use to render a "gunpowder" note ? like in Nassomatto Fantomas for example ?

  2. #2
    Super Member Big L's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun powder accord

    I hope it's not useless advice I am giving here. I never smelled Nassomatto Fantomas, and I plan to work on a gunpowder note for a concept I have, but until now, I did only research and no experimentation yet.

    Anyway, my notes suggest trying a mix of something smoky and sulfury (assuming that, like me, you are interested in old-school gun powder, not the modern smokeless gunpowder). Probably birch tar for the smoke and + thiomenthone (or buchu oil), and a little bit of dimethyl sulfide for the sulfur note.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Gun powder accord

    Looks like Gunpowder residue odor has many obscure materials for perfumery, some not used at all...

    Lots of benzyl/benzene molecules:
    ethylbenzene, benzaldehyde, 1,2,4-trimethylbenzene, 1,2,3-trimethylbenzene, benzonitrile, benzylnitrile

    many phenolics, like phenol, and all the xylenes.

    dipheylamine also figures prominently.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Gun powder accord

    Might be worthwhile to revisit this thread on ashy-smokey materials.
    (Filipsson's mention of Amber Crude smelling like welding fumes has stuck in my mind)

    PK, thanks for that breakdown. The presence of benzaldehyde is useful to know, since in honour of Canada's Victoria Day holiday in a couple weeks I'm sketching out a lilac-and-fireworks scent (lilac is common around here, and always blooms around the holiday, though it's so cold this year it may be late). Benzaldehyde is one of the lilac accord elements that could help marry the two.

  5. #5
    Super Member Big L's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun powder accord

    Quote Originally Posted by Septime View Post
    Might be worthwhile to revisit this thread on ashy-smokey materials.
    (Filipsson's mention of Amber Crude smelling like welding fumes has stuck in my mind)

    PK, thanks for that breakdown. The presence of benzaldehyde is useful to know, since in honour of Canada's Victoria Day holiday in a couple weeks I'm sketching out a lilac-and-fireworks scent (lilac is common around here and always blooms around the holiday, though it's so cold this year it may be late). Benzaldehyde is one of the lilac accord elements that could help marry the two.
    Over here, the lilac usually blooms mid-April, this year, it's just started blooming this week, and on many of the bushes, the flowers are still closed. Spring was arriving a bit late this year. Still, I was lucky to find a massive bush in full bloom today and was hanging around enjoying it for a long while.

    Lilac and fireworks sounds great. I look forward to hearing more about it.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Gun powder accord

    I am fond of the subject, and here is my experiences so far:

    To start with, many claimed gun powder accords in perfumes has left me highly disappointed. The worst being Eau de space, which you can read about in this forum. Other smoky stuff supposedly inspired by battlefields and whatnot, is merely focusing on the birch tar-aspects, with some woods and sometimes a metallic aspect in the top. Beaufort London has three funny ones: Tonnere, Iron Duke, and Rake and ruin. They are all worth testing, but I can not say any of them has a gun powder accord. A bunch of birch tar in Tonnere (earlier named 1805) makes it sour. The other two is more complex and can be of interest in learning wildly unconventional perfumes.

    When it comes to good accords in this area, I can only point out Slumberhose Norne, which at least to me, has a magic top with something strange leaning towards this. I do not have a clue to what it is made of, even though it is claimed to be a fairly simple formula. It has been my inspiration in the attempts. However, the further I have gotten, I realize I am not really looking for "gun powder" which is many different scents. It is also unclear what people associate with it. I was a minesweeper in my military service, and those things blown up did not smell very pleasant. Gun powder nowadays is not either pleasant, but some like the metallic, oily smell afterwards from maintainance of the gun. What we tend to like is rather the smoke from fireworks, and cap gun-scent from childs toys. And the further I have gotten, I tend to zoom in on what I would call "burnt match scent". And there is actually a material that is described partly in this way.

    At the same time, I would discourage from using dimethyl sulfide. I have never gotten even close to the goal with that material. It can destroy the whole formula. Dimethyl sulfide is actually smelling ofo onions, and even in extremely small amounts, rather turn the scent into something food-like. Since there often is other notes of spices, smoke and wood when trying to create something like this, the food or bread aspect is already there and can easily be dominant. There is apparently different kinds of sulfur notes. Instead I would recommend youu trying some coffee-material, in small amounts. It is harder, has burnt aspects, and can develop into more interesting stuff in the right blend.

    This is one of the attempts I made last year, when I got some coffee material (however cheap). It is the closest I have gotten so far, but it is definitely not into the harbour yet. The idea was to mix some warmth and sweetness, with some sharper stuff, to find the strange balance that a burnt match has. This is not to be regarded as a finished accord, just a sketch. And since I do not want to contribute to you folks overbuying weird stuff that you have no use for, just regard this as inspiration. You can most cetrainly replace lots of it wiht other stuff to try finding the effects in other ways. Some, however, may be crucial:


    The warm and woody (and this part you can most certainly tweak as you want):
    Fir balsam absolute 12
    Tolu balsam 4
    Eugenol 1
    Labdanum absolute 15
    Oakmoss absolute 8
    Patchoulol 20
    Octanol 5

    The colder, spicier stuff:
    Cardamom co2 10
    Frankincense e.o. 20 (I would not go for the finer absolutes here, you would want it to lean towards camphor, medicinal and fresh)
    Norlimbanol 1
    Grapefruit e.o. 10 (if you can find some with particular sulfury aspects, it probably helps the effect)

    The important stuff:
    Coffee fleuressence 3 (The only coffee material I have purchased. Can be the worst alternative, since it also has a creamy, sweet aspect. If you can find a more pure coffee material, it will probably do better. But be careful, use small amounts, so it doesnt turn into a food-scent).
    Hydrocarboresine 3 (has a burned match aspect in its top. However easily transformable into incense, and can also be meaty or just clogging up a mix).
    Boisambrene 1 (strong, hard, dry and cold)
    Trisamber 1 (strong, strange coldness)



    I am very curious of Furfuryl mecaptan, but havent found anyone selling it. Goodscentscompany claims it to be "Sulfurous roasted coffee, burnt match-like, rubbery". very interesting, probably easy to create something hideous. But I would really like to try it.

    Some other stuff that comes up in these discussions:
    Black pepper, Nagarmotha, Castoreum synt and Myrrh are materials I have tried in these experiments as well, but with worse results than the above blend.

    Terranol and buchu oil is sometimes mentioned, but I have not tried these.


    And to finish with, here is the hardest, most brutal accord I have made. Welding fumes and asphalt. A killer-accord:
    Aniseed e.o, a really cheap one, this is not suppsed to be pretty: 10
    Amber crude aka Fozzilized amber oil: 10 (this is where the magic happens)
    Eugenol: 3
    Castoreum synt: 2
    And amber crude being the name Hermitage Oils used. Eden has it here: https://www.edenbotanicals.com/amber...ossilized.html

  7. #7

    Default Re: Gun powder accord

    Interesting that you find Norne to have a gunpowder note. I get warm smoky sweet forest fire, not acrid cold metallic flintlock gunpowder.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Gun powder accord

    Cis-Jasmone in high doses has a gunpowder smell to me, reminds me of the smell in the air after a fireworks display.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Gun powder accord

    Filipsson, being from Europe, you may not really know the smell of a North American Skunk, from driving by a roadkill on the highway. It is extremely strong... and getting skunk spray off a dog who got into a fight with a skunk, wow... poor you, and poor Dog.

    Furfuryl Mercaptan smells like skunk when you open the bottle, so you'd better never open a bottle inside your house, or any other enclosed structure.
    When massively diluted, like as in 1/1,000, or 1/10,000, then it starts to smell like really strong coffee.
    Just the same as if you stick your nose in a large industrial coffee brewing machine to smell the spent brewed grounds, it starts to smell like skunk.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Gun powder accord

    Without wanting to kidnap the gun powder thread, with respect, it also has something to do with it, does anyone know what material for a fire accord (flames, some smoke)? Birch tar or cade at minimum perhaps..¿?Thanks

  11. #11

    Default Re: Gun powder accord

    Never a bad time to remind people of the somewhat-difficult-to-locate Good Scents Odor Index, under which you find:

    Burnt
    Smoky

  12. #12
    Common Lackey

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    Default Re: Gun powder accord

    Non-perfumer here, but subscribing to thread because all the scents you mention sound fascinating.

  13. #13
    Basenotes Junkie Casper_grassy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gun powder accord

    I can’t speak on gunpowder but if you want fantomas you need cashmeran, norlimbanol and wormwood.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Gun powder accord

    Overdose of Norlimbanol might help, I doubt any of the wood tar oils will work, too meaty.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Gun powder accord

    Quote Originally Posted by coumarine View Post
    Hello fellows perfumers,

    Any idea of which molecule(s) to use to render a "gunpowder" note ? like in Nassomatto Fantomas for example ?
    As variant creosol (4-methyl guaiacol ) + isobutyl quinoline 10%

  16. #16

    Default Re: Gun powder accord

    Quote Originally Posted by Septime View Post
    Never a bad time to remind people of the somewhat-difficult-to-locate Good Scents Odor Index, under which you find:

    Burnt
    Smoky
    Ok, it's the first thing I looked at of course, but I mean FIRE, which is different from BURNT and SMOKEY, thanks anyway

  17. #17

    Default Re: Gun powder accord

    Quote Originally Posted by chyprefresh View Post
    Overdose of Norlimbanol might help, I doubt any of the wood tar oils will work, too meaty.
    I agree. When it comes to smoke, many attemts just makes a formula turn to meat, or turn sour. In my experience, when building something smoky, it is often easier to rely on built in smoke notes in other materials, such as some woods (oakmoss, jade wood, oakwood co2, some of the less toppy pine/fir-materials, also a nice synthetic castoreum I have highly diluted. Its a blend of non-animalic materials, and very fun to spice up a deep formula with, and of course all of the incense ones). Norlimbanol by the way is a fun and strange beast, which may be of help in small amounts.

    As the smoke-question comes up, here too: My experience is this:
    Birch tar (as a few percents dilution in ethanol, I work with a 5% at the moment, in small amounts) is brutal in its forest fire scent. Toppy and dominant, and will easily destroy any fine tuned formula.
    Guaiacol on the other hand is a much milder scent. More towards a cosy log fire in a cabin.
    The one I like the most is Hermitage oils Guaiacol Natural Isolate, because it is right inbetween the two above mentioned. As such, easier to twist in different directions. Strong character but not as brutal as birch tar.


    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Filipsson, being from Europe, you may not really know the smell of a North American Skunk, from driving by a roadkill on the highway. It is extremely strong... and getting skunk spray off a dog who got into a fight with a skunk, wow... poor you, and poor Dog.

    Furfuryl Mercaptan smells like skunk when you open the bottle, so you'd better never open a bottle inside your house, or any other enclosed structure.
    When massively diluted, like as in 1/1,000, or 1/10,000, then it starts to smell like really strong coffee.
    Just the same as if you stick your nose in a large industrial coffee brewing machine to smell the spent brewed grounds, it starts to smell like skunk.

    Thats an effective desctription. I take it you are not recommending this particular material. Since its so hard to find, I might try with a fitting coffee material. Infact, I got a little extra curious of the CO2 that Hermitage oils offer. "strong notes of roasted coffee and burnt tobacco undertones" may be something to experiment with in this genre.



    Quote Originally Posted by mnitabach View Post
    Interesting that you find Norne to have a gunpowder note. I get warm smoky sweet forest fire, not acrid cold metallic flintlock gunpowder.
    I may have to nuance myself a bit regarding Norne. I agree that smoky sweet forest fire is a viable description of the perfume. What I mean with gunpowder note i mentioned, is rather something more towards the burnt match I also mentioned above. During the first 10-20 minutes, there is a top note of this strange and beautiful dry and somewhat organic chemical tone, that works along with the pungent and sweet note also there from the start, which to me becomes a top note of burned match, leaning towards the closest a gun powder scent I have found.




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