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  1. #31

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by avo1811 View Post
    I did read an interview one time where he stated that he creates every fragrance for Roja Dove from the comfort of his own home.
    If that was true he would be probably the most versatile and productive perfumer in history.

  2. #32

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by rollzst View Post
    Why do you not collect Roja parfums and what makes you decide to collect all perfumes from a particular brand?

    I own several CC and Roja scents and enjoy all of them but I think Roja takes the edge though. I do want to buy CC matsukita though. I may blind buy it.
    I’d suggest not blind buying Matsukita. I tried it in my local Saks. It seemed a little challenging and sharp to me. I can’t describe except to say the scent was very unusual and my brain registered it as smelling like plants - the not particularly pleasant ones. It wasn’t pleasant to me. It was just a random, very odd smell. Consider sampling first. Might save u some money.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilenberg View Post
    You got clear and obvious counter-evidence. Delacourte is a respected and experienced perfumer with no horse in this race. One can question her trustworthiness but I believe there are some limits to ridiculousness. I understand that someone might be gullible but believing in marketing is not really any evidence at all. At the moment we got facts stated by a credible person who knows him very well professionally vs. you being "pretty convinced" by his well-edited, scripted videos and persona. Let's be serious here.
    ccdan beat me to it below, that your supposed quote from Delacourte is not substantiated either and pretty sketchy. Even if I take it as real, again it just highlights that Roja was not a trained perfumer unlike the other two. It did not mention that he did not create Puredistance M in that example. So, no...no facts in either case. Good try though.


    Quote Originally Posted by ccdan View Post
    There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Roja Dove is not a perfurmer or that his perfumes were made by someone else.

    One individual's words are not evidence, just allegations. So, even if Delacourte did say that, it doesn't mean it was true. But wait, we don't even have evidence that Delacourt had said what you posted which seems to be another post from basenotes: https://www.basenotes.net/threads/39...n-thread/page2 - which appears to be fabricated. The first part of the text in french(PUREDISTANCE est une Maison de Parfum indépendante ) seems to come from here: https://www.jovoyparis.com/fr/maison...4_puredistance . The second part, where perfumers are named, from here: https://parfumerietheodora.com/portf.../puredistance/ (ends with Roja Dove a Londres). Then, someone(possibly the poster that wrote that post in 2014) added that nasty part "ce dernier est le seul qui ne soit pas parfumeur."

    One could say at most, on a skeptical note, that we don't know for sure whether Roja Dove is a perfumer. However, the overall situation is in his favor: no other perfumer has ever claimed to have contributed to the Roja perfumes(and he has a lot of frags released), he is credited by Puredistance as perfumer for M, lots of websites also consider him a perfumer.
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  4. #34
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilenberg View Post
    If that was true he would be probably the most versatile and productive perfumer in history.
    Nah, that would be one Alberto Morillas.
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  5. #35

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilenberg View Post
    Cut the cr*p please!

    Two totally irrelevant images and a text written by an anonymous moron on reddit prove absolutely nothing!

    Here's one of the images in higher resolution: https://i.imgur.com/zClwGJV.png

    How that "proves" that Roja is not a perfumer is beyond me!

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by ccdan View Post
    Cut the cr*p please!

    Two totally irrelevant images and a text written by an anonymous moron on reddit prove absolutely nothing!

    Here's one of the images in higher resolution: https://i.imgur.com/zClwGJV.png

    How that "proves" that Roja is not a perfumer is beyond me!
    That's why I didn't even comment on it. lol It's amazing what passes for "proof" or "evidence" for this guy.


    Quote Originally Posted by ultravisitor View Post
    I do think it's a little freakish how defensive people get over Roja Dove and his perfumes.
    Haha, I'm starting to get that way. I'm pretty much that way when there's obvious garbage being leveled at really any perfumer or subject. A lot of people seem to hear something (lie or not) enough times that they start repeating it as gospel. It's quite fashionable bashing big brands as you know.

    I just happen to be closer to the whole Roja debate recently, not really sure why, so might as well see what people actually have on the claim. Again, doesn't have an effect on my enjoyment or non-enjoyment, but interesting nonetheless.
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  7. #37

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by avo1811 View Post
    As far as Puredistance[...] he stated that he creates every fragrance for Roja Dove from the comfort of his own home.
    The question is: why would Puredistance credit him as a perfumer if someone else did the job?

    Here's a video of him doing some stuff perfumers do:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6A5818skCM

  8. #38

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Funny to see the Fragrances of the World database entries not being a credible source for the folks who are convinced that Roja is a perfumer just because he poses with a pipette on a scripted video or two for his own brand. Big lol.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by ccdan View Post
    The question is: why would Puredistance credit him as a perfumer if someone else did the job?

    Here's a video of him doing some stuff perfumers do:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6A5818skCM
    Ahh, another hilarious video from Mr. Roger! I love how he constantly pours one and the same paper strip over and over again in the formula he 'creates' in a flask for the viewers. I actually burst with laughter when after he had done it about 20 times, he decided to add precisely 3 drops of orange oil and when smelling the very same strip (that most likely is already soggy and smelling nothing like what he actually has in the flask) for the 21st time he said 'yup, that's exactly what I was looking for'. Thanks for posting it ccdan and if you have other video 'proofs' of Mr. Roger being the Maestro of perfumery at work please post them. They don't really help your case but surely make for some great entertainment.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilenberg View Post
    Funny to see the Fragrances of the World database entries not being a credible source for the folks who are convinced that Roja is a perfumer just because he poses with a pipette on a scripted video or two for his own brand. Big lol.
    I don't think he's just posing with a pipette. lol

    If you watch the video, scripted or otherwise, he's literally talking about the ingredients and characteristics that he's decided to include in the formula, in great detail. It's the same type of info he gives when doing in person non-scripted Q&As. He's obviously passionate about his formulas and ingredients, and is quite knowledgeable about them.

    To me, it's all the information that he is passing along and expanding on, more than the actual action of taking ingredients and mixing them about.
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  11. #41

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilenberg View Post
    Ahh, another hilarious video from Mr. Roger! I love how he constantly pours one and the same paper strip over and over again in the formula he 'creates' in a flask for the viewers. I actually burst with laughter when after he had done it about 20 times, he decided to add precisely 3 drops of orange oil and when smelling the very same strip (that most likely is already soggy and smelling nothing like what he actually has in the flask) for the 21st time he said 'yup, that's exactly what I was looking for'. Thanks for posting it ccdan and if you have other video 'proofs' of Mr. Roger being the Maestro of perfumery at work please post them. They don't really help your case but surely make for some great entertainment.
    I'm not even sure how much I believe he's the brains behind his own brand. He's so uncreative all he can come up with is "the smell of money". I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's silent partners doing the heavy lifting for their %, while Roja get's his "legacy", and the privilege of attending all the events in his oh so fashionable suits. Although that could explain why most of the brand makes stuff other people already did.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    I'm not even sure how much I believe he's the brains behind his own brand. He's so uncreative all he can come up with is "the smell of money". I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's silent partners doing the heavy lifting for their %, while Roja get's his "legacy", and the privilege of attending all the events in his oh so fashionable suits. Although that could explain why most of the brand makes stuff other people already did.
    That's why none of these statements are constructive. You're just arbitrarily making claims (again unfounded and random) seemingly because you felt like it. It's not from any evidence or even logical conclusions.

    It's like I'll wake up this morning and state that Coca Cola is actually Pepsi but with a red label. Just random stuff. Perhaps you hate the man, and that's fine. It's just a head scratcher for me what you claim arbitrarily.
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  13. #43

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by deltasun View Post
    That's why none of these statements are constructive. You're just arbitrarily making claims (again unfounded and random) seemingly because you felt like it. It's not from any evidence or even logical conclusions.

    It's like I'll wake up this morning and state that Coca Cola is actually Pepsi but with a red label. Just random stuff. Perhaps you hate the man, and that's fine. It's just a head scratcher for me what you claim arbitrarily.
    You may not believe it's evidence or logical, but since there's no hard facts (other than the hard evidence presented that do prove Roger isn't a perfumer) for a lot of this speculation, speculation is all it can be. You can't stifle conversation by demanding hard evidence when none exists in regards to certain nuances of this conversation, and then say you win because of that. If you're going to champion logic & reasoning, then you have to abide by it as well. Anyways, we already know your take on the subject I'm not really interested in conversation with you about the topic after this, but feel free to still reply -- I just won't anymore. I just don't want our conversation to pitfall into toxicity, and seeing as we aren't going to find a middle ground that's probably the only place it goes. I'm more speaking to the other people in the thread at this point in time.

  14. #44

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by deltasun View Post
    in great detail.
    Ah yes, him calling lemon "fresh" and cedarwood "woody" were some great insights into the genius mind of one of the most respected perfumers alive. And what were your favourite, detailed pieces of information provided by Mr. Roger in this video?

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    You may not believe it's evidence or logical, but since there's no hard facts (other than the hard evidence presented that do prove Roger isn't a perfumer) for a lot of this speculation, speculation is all it can be. You can't stifle conversation by demanding hard evidence when none exists in regards to certain nuances of this conversation, and then say you win because of that. If you're going to champion logic & reasoning, then you have to abide by it as well. Anyways, we already know your take on the subject I'm not really interested in conversation with you about the topic after this, but feel free to still reply -- I just won't anymore. I just don't want our conversation to pitfall into toxicity, and seeing as we aren't going to find a middle ground that's probably the only place it goes. I'm more speaking to the other people in the thread at this point in time.
    Not about winning or losing, bud. I think my question was just why even go down on the side of not believing he is? It seems you could have easily fallen on either side of the equation but chose to pick the side that says he's a fake. I was just curious what the reason was. So maybe evidence is not the right word, but rather what made you think that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Eilenberg View Post
    Ah yes, him calling lemon "fresh" and cedarwood "woody" were some great insights into the genius mind of one of the most respected perfumers alive. And what were your favourite, detailed pieces of information provided by Mr. Roger in this video?
    Umm, without quoting every single detail he's said in past interviews...just going off memory, he mentioned how lavender is less camphorous the higher up in elevation it's grown. He made some distinctions between French and English lavender from a specific region, if I recall correctly. Now, on its own, it doesn't prove anything. But it's still a detail that a casual non-knowledgeable pseudo-perfumer wouldn't just rattle off. But he has a lot of those types of knowledge in a lot of his interviews/videos. I mean, the guy wrote a freakin' book on Perfumery for crying out loud. lol Oh wait, you'll probably claim he didn't write that book either.
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  16. #46

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    all he can come up with is "the smell of money".
    Well, it's hard to defend Mr. Roger being a perfumer but one thing is undisputedly true - he's a great marketer who knows his target audience and how to be heard by them very well.

  17. #47
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Just wondering about the impassioned crowd gungho on proving Roja is not a parfumer and somehow believing it’s a rocket science, do you believe a lot of the enthusiasts who become “perfumers” are more capable than Roja? The ensars, the russian adams, the ds durga dude, or maybe even a few basenoters who started from basenotes, and decided to take a jab at concocting?

  18. #48

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by deltasun View Post
    Not about winning or losing, bud. I think my question was just why even go down on the side of not believing he is? It seems you could have easily fallen on either side of the equation but chose to pick the side that says he's a fake. I was just curious what the reason was. So maybe evidence is not the right word, but rather what made you think that?




    Umm, without quoting every single detail he's said in past interviews...just going off memory, he mentioned how lavender is less camphorous the higher up in elevation it's grown. He made some distinctions between French and English lavender from a specific region, if I recall correctly. Now, on its own, it doesn't prove anything. But it's still a detail that a casual non-knowledgeable pseudo-perfumer wouldn't just rattle off. But he has a lot of those types of knowledge in a lot of his interviews/videos. I mean, the guy wrote a freakin' book on Perfumery for crying out loud. lol Oh wait, you'll probably claim he didn't write that book either.
    It was you who said that you were impressed with the details in *the* video that was posted here. Why to backpedal now and start making claims about other past interviews instead? I actually watched the video and there is absolutely nothing in it that every other Basenoter would not know about. I respect your passionate feelings about Mr. Roger but don't pretend that they stand anywhere close to 'facts' and 'logic'. If you got a better video/interview than that please free to post it. The one above is a quite miserable performance for someone who calls himself a "Master Perfumer". Given how incompetent he sounds in this video and what a limited vocabulary he actually has when talking about scents (earthy patchouli is another great master perfumer 'insight' of his that I laughed out loud at), I wouldn't be surprised if the book was ghostwritten.

  19. #49

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Mudassir View Post
    Just wondering about the impassioned crowd gungho on proving Roja is not a parfumer and somehow believing it’s a rocket science, do you believe a lot of the enthusiasts who become “perfumers” are more capable than Roja? The ensars, the russian adams, the ds durga dude, or maybe even a few basenoters who started from basenotes, and decided to take a jab at concocting?
    Not at all those perfumes always smell like they're crafted by someone who doesn't have training in perfumery. There's a certain piquancy that I can see appealing in that rawness, I even enjoyed Russian Oud by Russian Adam, and I'm not going to tell someone what they should & shouldn't like, but it is supposed value in materials over actual smell in those circle imo.

  20. #50

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Mudassir View Post
    Just wondering about the impassioned crowd gungho on proving Roja is not a parfumer and somehow believing it’s a rocket science, do you believe a lot of the enthusiasts who become “perfumers” are more capable than Roja? The ensars, the russian adams, the ds durga dude, or maybe even a few basenoters who started from basenotes, and decided to take a jab at concocting?
    You mean do we believe that Mr. Roger who worked for 20 years at Guerlain as a make-up sales trainer and had no expertise with creating perfumes whatsoever is capable of releasing dozens of well-composed, often brilliant, bold and moreover very varied perfumes in completely different styles in a few years after picking up this 'hobby'? Not so much. He'd need to be a perfumery prodigy for that but you clearly cannot see any evidence of that anywhere. Quite contrary, the video that was posted here shows that his understanding of materials is very superficial and he just learned some typical adjectives for some of the ingredients. His understanding of them is on the level of a youtube reviewer reciting notes and descriptions off fragrantica.

  21. #51
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    Not at all those perfumes always smell like they're crafted by someone who doesn't have training in perfumery. There's a certain piquancy that I can see appealing in that rawness, I even enjoyed Russian Oud by Russian Adam, and I'm not going to tell someone what they should & shouldn't like, but it is supposed value in materials over actual smell in those circle imo.
    Funnily enough, that's basically how I feel as well! And that specific fragrance Russian Oud, I believe, is the main/sole one I'd even consider owning again, lol. They may be chock-full of high quality ingredients, but they don't have character, layers, nuance, subtlety, etc. They're mashes of high quality stuff that they *hope* works out, it kind of seems. There's a very defined and 'visible' difference between something like an Areej composed by an amateur with quality ingredients VS something with lesser ingredients composed by a master hand such as Ellena. That's why now, after my experiences, I don't really even bother with anything Areej/Bortnikoff/etc.
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  22. #52

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    Not at all those perfumes always smell like they're crafted by someone who doesn't have training in perfumery. There's a certain piquancy that I can see appealing in that rawness, I even enjoyed Russian Oud by Russian Adam, and I'm not going to tell someone what they should & shouldn't like, but it is supposed value in materials over actual smell in those circle imo.
    Exactly. He probably didn't expect that but as a (thinking) fan of Bortnikoff/Russian Adam/Ensar I can also confirm that their stuff is semi-amateur work when compared to finishing and balance in virtually all of Rojas. Getting where Roja's scents are, takes many decades of relentless work and training. Yet he somehow was ready to release an entire line of varied, interesting fragrances a few years after he stopped working for Guerlain as a make-up sales trainer.

  23. #53
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Outside of whether Roja has the credentials or not (I 'know' he works or worked with Robertet), this is a question of brand vs brand.. I'm really not too sure, but I'm leaning Roja.

    So far more Roja's have clicked with me, but I haven't tried too many Clive's.
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  24. #54

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Yes coming back to the topic, I actually also prefer fragrances from the brand 'Roja Dove' over Clive Christian. Creation E and Diaghilev are both masterpieces that are completely different but I adore both.

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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilenberg;[URL="tel:5177519"
    5177519[/URL]]You mean do we believe that Mr. Roger who worked for 20 years at Guerlain as a make-up sales trainer and had no expertise with creating perfumes whatsoever is capable of releasing dozens of well-composed, often brilliant, bold and moreover very varied perfumes in completely different styles in a few years after picking up this 'hobby'? Not so much. He'd need to be a perfumery prodigy for that but you clearly cannot see any evidence of that anywhere. Quite contrary, the video that was posted here shows that his understanding of materials is very superficial and he just learned some typical adjectives for some of the ingredients. His understanding of them is on the level of a youtube reviewer reciting notes and descriptions off fragrantica.

    You know a youngster released just as many scents at DS&Durga as Roja, without having been connected to the industry. It makes sbsolutely no difference for a consumer whether X created a scent, or Y created a scent. It’s the brand that matters. Every Tom, Dick and Harry can throw together 15 different chemicals and oils. To some, that is what Roja is doing. To others, some of the best classics have been re-interpreted in such a lovely way, that cycism would be abound even if Edmond Roudnitska claimed he created them. Both are nonsensical.

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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilenberg View Post
    It was you who said that you were impressed with the details in *the* video that was posted here. Why to backpedal now and start making claims about other past interviews instead? I actually watched the video and there is absolutely nothing in it that every other Basenoter would not know about. I respect your passionate feelings about Mr. Roger but don't pretend that they stand anywhere close to 'facts' and 'logic'. If you got a better video/interview than that please free to post it. The one above is a quite miserable performance for someone who calls himself a "Master Perfumer". Given how incompetent he sounds in this video and what a limited vocabulary he actually has when talking about scents (earthy patchouli is another great master perfumer 'insight' of his that I laughed out loud at), I wouldn't be surprised if the book was ghostwritten.
    How did I backpedal? The lavender quote was from that video (that you supposedly watched). I didn't know it was common knowledge for us Basenoters that lavender gets less camphorous the higher in elevation it grows. I certainly didn't know that. For the patchouli, he talked about how he used rectified patchouli for the profile he's wanting in the composition. Anyway, it's all there and if all you see are the smart alec-y moments, then it's really just a matter of finding any and all faults for whatever reason. But thanks for your input nonetheless.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eilenberg View Post
    ...I wouldn't be surprised if the book was ghostwritten.
    Haha, not surprised you would claim that.
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  27. #57

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    If I really like a Roja fragrance, can someone tell me why I would give a crap over whether Roja is actually the "perfumer?"
    I don't get out much. But when I do, I smell real good.

  28. #58
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by StylinLA View Post
    If I really like a Roja fragrance, can someone tell me why I would give a crap over whether Roja is actually the "perfumer?"
    The only reason it would matter is if one cared that he's presenting himself as the perfumer. It's strictly an optics thing, and perhaps because one imagines that, at that price point, they're buying integrity in addition to perfume. Otherwise, it makes no more difference than the fact that Clive Christian is not a perfumer—nor virtually any of countless designers who emblazon their names on fragrance bottles.

    I've never tried Roja's wares. I suspect I'd like some, but would balk at the asking price for any, especially as I own a number of the vintage originals his brand is aping and they cost me less. So I suppose I like CC more by default, but it's not a real comparison. It's not like I'm happy that CC bought Crown Perfumery for the logo, bottles, and heritage, and then discarded its perfumes. But I really like 1872.
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by StylinLA View Post
    If I really like a Roja fragrance, can someone tell me why I would give a crap over whether Roja is actually the "perfumer?"
    That's the funny thing - I really don't care who the perfumer is of the fragrances that I like. I care that people are claiming as 100% fact that he is not what he's claiming to be. And honestly, I didn't even care about that before. I just started seeing it more and more lately and wanted to see the evidence and get to the bottom of it. I'm glad they're convinced, but I'm not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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  30. #60

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by StylinLA View Post
    If I really like a Roja fragrance, can someone tell me why I would give a crap over whether Roja is actually the "perfumer?"
    Quote Originally Posted by PStoller View Post
    The only reason it would matter is if one cared that he's presenting himself as the perfumer. It's strictly an optics thing, and perhaps because one imagines that, at that price point, they're buying integrity in addition to perfume. Otherwise, it makes no more difference than the fact that Clive Christian is not a perfumer—nor virtually any of countless designers who emblazon their names on fragrance bottles.

    I've never tried Roja's wares. I suspect I'd like some, but would balk at the asking price for any, especially as I own a number of the vintage originals his brand is aping and they cost me less. So I suppose I like CC more by default, but it's not a real comparison. It's not like I'm happy that CC bought Crown Perfumery for the logo, bottles, and heritage, and then discarded its perfumes. But I really like 1872.
    I think the most important aspect of any fragrance house is the overall smell of the scent itself, sometimes that gets lost from other noises in the background- perfumer, prestige, pricing sometimes, quality, history, controversy, opinions etc.
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