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  1. #1

    Default Roja vs Clive Christian

    Which perfume house do you think makes the best quality fragrances and why?

    I know these two houses are held in high esteem and are similar prices with a lot of their scents so it would be interesting to pit them against each other. I know CC has a new scent out, matsukita and they often boast about using like 300 ingredients per bottle.

    Also can somebody please clear something up for me, Does Roja Dove use REAL OUD? Think carefully here as I ideally want facts!

    Let the battle commence!
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    I've only tried 3 CC fragrances vs. a lot more Roja fragrances so I'm probably not a good judge as I prefer much more on the RD side.

    For the real oud question, I'll leave this video, which I thought was interesting.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    No Roja does not use real oud. As for what the brands offer I like No. 1 Men, but other than that I think Roja would take the cake.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    I've sampled all the Clives and only Rock Rose is worth the cash to me. It's incredible and nothing smells like it.

    I'm new to the Roja world and only Creation-E has impressed me so far. The other scents don't seem to be my style.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    I happen to like both houses, but I only collect CC so my vote goes to CC.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Very interesting, he said he uses several blends of oud whatever that exactly means I don’t know. I do happen to own amber aoud and Qatar from Roja which are very nice. I don’t know if there is real oud in them then.


    Quote Originally Posted by deltasun View Post
    I've only tried 3 CC fragrances vs. a lot more Roja fragrances so I'm probably not a good judge as I prefer much more on the RD side.

    For the real oud question, I'll leave this video, which I thought was interesting.

    Currently wearing: Royal Mayfair by Creed

  7. #7

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Why do you not collect Roja parfums and what makes you decide to collect all perfumes from a particular brand?

    I own several CC and Roja scents and enjoy all of them but I think Roja takes the edge though. I do want to buy CC matsukita though. I may blind buy it.

    Quote Originally Posted by hednic View Post
    I happen to like both houses, but I only collect CC so my vote goes to CC.
    Currently wearing: Royal Mayfair by Creed

  8. #8

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Linking a fair share of both, would have a very difficult and almost impossible task to pick out a favorite:
    perhaps Roja Dove for more on the creative side, CC more on the exclusiveness on luxury-thought would rank both equally competent and accomplished at high quality notes/ingredients and high standards

  9. #9

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Of the ones one tried, I find Clive Christian much better.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quality of ingredients, I would go with CC based on smell alone, but I have no idea for the actual difference in the cost/quality of ingredients each house uses. Both smell like they use the top notch stuff, though I doubt Roja uses actual oud to answer your other question. Quality of composition, I would say that I have found more winners from Roja than CC. Roja has released way more than CC though too.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by rollzst View Post
    what makes you decide to collect all perfumes from a particular brand?
    If the house fits the criteria of my collection. In the case of CC, it's a special case.
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    Mean spirited, nasty, snide, sarcastic, hateful, and rude individuals on Basenotes don't warrant or deserve my or other Basenoters' acknowledgement or respect.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by rollzst View Post
    Very interesting, he said he uses several blends of oud whatever that exactly means I don’t know. I do happen to own amber aoud and Qatar from Roja which are very nice. I don’t know if there is real oud in them then.
    He says many things that are half-truths or just false. For example about himself being a perfumer and not merely a (very talented!) marketing guy running (successfully!) a perfume house.

    Puredistance est une Maison de Parfum indépendante . Les nez travaillant en coulisse sur les Parfums de Puredistance sont Annie Buzantian à New York, Antoine Lie à Paris et Roja Dove à Londres, ce dernier est le seul qui ne soit pas parfumeur.

    "Puredistance is an independent Perfume House. The noses working behind the scenes on the Puredistance perfumes are Annie Buzantian in New York, Antoine Lie in Paris and Roja Dove in London, the latter is the only one who is not a perfumer".

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilenberg View Post
    He says many things that are half-truths or just false. For example about himself being a perfumer and not merely a (very talented!) marketing guy running (successfully!) a perfume house.

    Puredistance est une Maison de Parfum indépendante . Les nez travaillant en coulisse sur les Parfums de Puredistance sont Annie Buzantian à New York, Antoine Lie à Paris et Roja Dove à Londres, ce dernier est le seul qui ne soit pas parfumeur.

    "Puredistance is an independent Perfume House. The noses working behind the scenes on the Puredistance perfumes are Annie Buzantian in New York, Antoine Lie in Paris and Roja Dove in London, the latter is the only one who is not a perfumer".
    Source? 'Cause it sounds like you simply quoted a Basenotes post from 2014. Also, Roja is not a trained perfumer, but something he picked up along the way. That could be what the quote from Delacourte is referring to. But in that same quote, he is referred to as one of the noses, meaning he worked on the perfumes, if not the perfume that is Puredistance M.

    So, are you saying that Puredistance who cites Roja Dove as the perfumer behind Puredistance M is lying or covering for him somehow?

    Again, it's no skin off my nose whether he is the creator/nose (not to use perfumer, as even he admits he wasn't trained) behind his releases, but I don't see much counter evidence either. I watch his videos and the way he talks about creating his perfumes in detail sounds pretty convincing, as well as some videos of him mixing, etc. And yes, you can stage all that stuff, but the videos aren't making a point to show him at work. It's part of a montage where he's talking about creating exclusive fragrances for Madison in Romania.

    This is actually becoming more and more interesting to me and would like to get to the bottom of it somehow. lol
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilenberg View Post
    He says many things that are half-truths or just false. For example about himself being a perfumer and not merely a (very talented!) marketing guy running (successfully!) a perfume house.

    Puredistance est une Maison de Parfum indépendante . Les nez travaillant en coulisse sur les Parfums de Puredistance sont Annie Buzantian à New York, Antoine Lie à Paris et Roja Dove à Londres, ce dernier est le seul qui ne soit pas parfumeur.

    "Puredistance is an independent Perfume House. The noses working behind the scenes on the Puredistance perfumes are Annie Buzantian in New York, Antoine Lie in Paris and Roja Dove in London, the latter is the only one who is not a perfumer".
    Are you ready?

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    I don’t understand.It is so vast that surpasses all understanding.Understanding is always limited.But not understanding can have no boundaries.I feel like I'm much more complete when I don't understand.Not understanding,like I say,is a gift.Not understanding,but not as a simple-minded.The good thing is to be intelligent and not understand.It's a strange blessing, like having craziness without being crazy.It is a meek disinterest,it is a stupid sweetness.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by deltasun View Post
    Source? 'Cause it sounds like you simply quoted a Basenotes post from 2014. Also, Roja is not a trained perfumer, but something he picked up along the way. That could be what the quote from Delacourte is referring to. But in that same quote, he is referred to as one of the noses, meaning he worked on the perfumes, if not the perfume that is Puredistance M.

    So, are you saying that Puredistance who cites Roja Dove as the perfumer behind Puredistance M is lying or covering for him somehow?

    Again, it's no skin off my nose whether he is the creator/nose (not to use perfumer, as even he admits he wasn't trained) behind his releases, but I don't see much counter evidence either. I watch his videos and the way he talks about creating his perfumes in detail sounds pretty convincing, as well as some videos of him mixing, etc. And yes, you can stage all that stuff, but the videos aren't making a point to show him at work. It's part of a montage where he's talking about creating exclusive fragrances for Madison in Romania.

    This is actually becoming more and more interesting to me and would like to get to the bottom of it somehow. lol
    Do you know what Roger did for Guerlain? He was never making perfume, nor did he work with people in an application he'd "pick it up" (as if you can just pick up chemistry). This conversation is tired, and done it's not speculation it's fact Roger is not a perfumer, nor does he craft the perfume for his brand. Puredistance is not "covering" it's just marketing same way most Tom Ford's are assumed to be crafted by Tom himself, even though that's clearly not the case.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    Do you know what Roger did for Guerlain? He was never making perfume, nor did he work with people in an application he'd "pick it up" (as if you can just pick up chemistry). This conversation is tired, and done it's not speculation it's fact Roger is not a perfumer, nor does he craft the perfume for his brand. Puredistance is not "covering" it's just marketing same way most Tom Ford's are assumed to be crafted by Tom himself, even though that's clearly not the case.
    No, he didn't make perfume at Guerlain. I thought he was basically a glorified "gopher" there. I didn't say he just picked up chemistry, because he himself states this numerous times in his video that you're not going to be a perfumer without a chemistry degree or experience in chemistry, kind of implying he had some kind of a chemistry background.

    You're not really adding anything to this conversation since you state it's a fact that he's not a perfumer. Again, show me some evidence. I'm interested to know one way or the other. And if it's a tired subject, you're welcome to ignore the thread. By the way, I don't think Tom Ford is claiming he is the nose behind his perfumes. He has named some perfumers while not fully naming others for one reason or another. Some might even not want to be name anyway. But I don't think he's ever claimed that he has nosed some of his releases.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by rollzst View Post
    Which perfume house do you think makes the best quality fragrances and why?

    I know these two houses are held in high esteem and are similar prices with a lot of their scents so it would be interesting to pit them against each other. I know CC has a new scent out, matsukita and they often boast about using like 300 ingredients per bottle.

    Also can somebody please clear something up for me, Does Roja Dove use REAL OUD? Think carefully here as I ideally want facts!

    Let the battle commence!
    There's no point in comparing the whole line-up of one, vs the whole line-up of the other. First because each house has some good and bad. And second, in that case, because their styles are totally different.
    Roja is known to be a high-end clone house, and there's a part of truth in that, so CC deserve recognition for its creativity compared to Roja. On the other side, I happen to find more hits to my nose with Roja than CC, which are very complex scents, and sometimes a bit of a mess to my nose.
    So for me, had I to spend big bucks, the majority of time, I'd go for a Roja fragrance, but the first frag I would by of these 2 houses is CC 1872. So for me, CC gets the #1 slot, but all the other slots would go to Roja, if that makes sense.

    I have no evidence of Roja's Oud, but in comparison to other high-end oud frags I got the chance to try (Fragrance du Bois, Areej Le Dore, Bortnikoff...), my nose answers a solid YES, for what it's worth.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by deltasun View Post
    No, he didn't make perfume at Guerlain. I thought he was basically a glorified "gopher" there. I didn't say he just picked up chemistry, because he himself states this numerous times in his video that you're not going to be a perfumer without a chemistry degree or experience in chemistry, kind of implying he had some kind of a chemistry background.

    You're not really adding anything to this conversation since you state it's a fact that he's not a perfumer. Again, show me some evidence. I'm interested to know one way or the other. And if it's a tired subject, you're welcome to ignore the thread. By the way, I don't think Tom Ford is claiming he is the nose behind his perfumes. He has named some perfumers while not fully naming others for one reason or another. Some might even not want to be name anyway. But I don't think he's ever claimed that he has nosed some of his releases.

    You can't prove a negative I'm not going there. I'm not going to ignore the thread I'm going to refute incorrect facts. Roger is not and has never been a perfumer. That being said I do enjoy many of his brands perfumes. Let's get this thread back on topic.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    You can't prove a negative I'm not going there. I'm not going to ignore the thread I'm going to refute incorrect facts. Roger is not and has never been a perfumer. That being said I do enjoy many of his brands perfumes. Let's get this thread back on topic.
    Haha, you throw a few more unsubstantiated claims and say let's get this thread back on topic.

    Anyway, you're "refuting incorrect facts" but offer no proof. Is it just a gut feeling? A talking point of your favorite youtuber? Anyway, I'd love to see evidence because I keep hearing that he's not. It's easy to make claims without backing it up.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    I'm not sure I understand the nature of this inquiry.

    They both make pricey, high quality scents.

    People will like and dislike scents from either of them.

    Both have pricing structures that are a bit polarizing.
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  21. #21

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by deltasun View Post
    Haha, you throw a few more unsubstantiated claims and say let's get this thread back on topic.

    Anyway, you're "refuting incorrect facts" but offer no proof. Is it just a gut feeling? A talking point of your favorite youtuber? Anyway, I'd love to see evidence because I keep hearing that he's not. It's easy to make claims without backing it up.
    If you say so. Personally my favorite Roja is Diaghilev.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Of the few I've tried from each, I prefer Clive Christian.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by StylinLA View Post
    I'm not sure I understand the nature of this inquiry.

    They both make pricey, high quality scents.

    People will like and dislike scents from either of them.

    Both have pricing structures that are a bit polarizing.
    That sums up this thread, also applies to the recent Roja Vs Creed thread as well.
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  24. #24

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by N.CAL Fragrance Reviewer View Post
    That sums up this thread, also applies to the recent Roja Vs Creed thread as well.
    It seems designed to stir needless debates that are pointless.

    The premise that any one of these companies is "better" than another is silly.

    One may or may not like any scents by ROJA, CREED or CLIVE CHRISTIAN.

    Personally I don't care whether any of these guys are technically perfumers or if they can't find their own backside with both hands.

    Their name is on the door and if they make a scent I like a lot and can afford, I may buy it. Or I may think it's too pricey for me.
    Last edited by StylinLA; 14th May 2021 at 08:44 AM.
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  25. #25
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    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by rollzst View Post
    Why do you not collect Roja parfums and what makes you decide to collect all perfumes from a particular brand?

    I own several CC and Roja scents and enjoy all of them but I think Roja takes the edge though. I do want to buy CC matsukita though. I may blind buy it.
    What about the LV Pur Oud? Did you try it yet?
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  26. #26

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by deltasun View Post
    Source? 'Cause it sounds like you simply quoted a Basenotes post from 2014. Also, Roja is not a trained perfumer, but something he picked up along the way. That could be what the quote from Delacourte is referring to. But in that same quote, he is referred to as one of the noses, meaning he worked on the perfumes, if not the perfume that is Puredistance M.

    So, are you saying that Puredistance who cites Roja Dove as the perfumer behind Puredistance M is lying or covering for him somehow?

    Again, it's no skin off my nose whether he is the creator/nose (not to use perfumer, as even he admits he wasn't trained) behind his releases, but I don't see much counter evidence either. I watch his videos and the way he talks about creating his perfumes in detail sounds pretty convincing, as well as some videos of him mixing, etc. And yes, you can stage all that stuff, but the videos aren't making a point to show him at work. It's part of a montage where he's talking about creating exclusive fragrances for Madison in Romania.

    This is actually becoming more and more interesting to me and would like to get to the bottom of it somehow. lol
    You got clear and obvious counter-evidence. Delacourte is a respected and experienced perfumer with no horse in this race. One can question her trustworthiness but I believe there are some limits to ridiculousness. I understand that someone might be gullible but believing in marketing is not really any evidence at all. At the moment we got facts stated by a credible person who knows him very well professionally vs. you being "pretty convinced" by his well-edited, scripted videos and persona. Let's be serious here.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilenberg View Post
    You got clear and obvious counter-evidence. Delacourte
    There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Roja Dove is not a perfurmer or that his perfumes were made by someone else.

    One individual's words are not evidence, just allegations. So, even if Delacourte did say that, it doesn't mean it was true. But wait, we don't even have evidence that Delacourt had said what you posted which seems to be another post from basenotes: https://www.basenotes.net/threads/39...n-thread/page2 - which appears to be fabricated. The first part of the text in french(PUREDISTANCE est une Maison de Parfum indépendante ) seems to come from here: https://www.jovoyparis.com/fr/maison...4_puredistance . The second part, where perfumers are named, from here: https://parfumerietheodora.com/portf.../puredistance/ (ends with Roja Dove a Londres). Then, someone(possibly the poster that wrote that post in 2014) added that nasty part "ce dernier est le seul qui ne soit pas parfumeur."

    One could say at most, on a skeptical note, that we don't know for sure whether Roja Dove is a perfumer. However, the overall situation is in his favor: no other perfumer has ever claimed to have contributed to the Roja perfumes(and he has a lot of frags released), he is credited by Puredistance as perfumer for M, lots of websites also consider him a perfumer.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    I do think it's a little freakish how defensive people get over Roja Dove and his perfumes.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by ccdan View Post
    There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Roja Dove is not a perfurmer or that his perfumes were made by someone else.

    One individual's words are not evidence, just allegations. So, even if Delacourte did say that, it doesn't mean it was true. But wait, we don't even have evidence that Delacourt had said what you posted which seems to be another post from basenotes: https://www.basenotes.net/threads/39...n-thread/page2 - which appears to be fabricated. The first part of the text in french(PUREDISTANCE est une Maison de Parfum indépendante ) seems to come from here: https://www.jovoyparis.com/fr/maison...4_puredistance . The second part, where perfumers are named, from here: https://parfumerietheodora.com/portf.../puredistance/ (ends with Roja Dove a Londres). Then, someone(possibly the poster that wrote that post in 2014) added that nasty part "ce dernier est le seul qui ne soit pas parfumeur."

    One could say at most, on a skeptical note, that we don't know for sure whether Roja Dove is a perfumer. However, the overall situation is in his favor: no other perfumer has ever claimed to have contributed to the Roja perfumes(and he has a lot of frags released), he is credited by Puredistance as perfumer for M, lots of websites also consider him a perfumer.
    zClwGJV.jpg
    ydvUTH4.jpg

    This is a screenshot from Fragrances of the World. It's an internal fragrance database accessible only by people who work in the fragrance industry - evaluators, lab assistants, account managers sometimes at big fragrance houses, etc. (yes, I have access).

    The database is compiled independently by external people who have no personal stake in the industry. Mostly, a guy called Michael Edwards (and his team) who has been doing it for 20 years and he basically goes around all fragrances houses every year and asks them what they have released. This information is never released to the public. Most of it circulates within the industry.

    I never gave Roja much thought to be honest until I met him at an event in London several years ago where I overheard him talk to a guy who actually IS a perfumer. I listened in on the conversation for about 10 minutes and it became painfully obvious that Roja had no idea which fragrance materials the perfumer guy was talking about. At the time I was training at one of the big fragrance houses as an evaluator, was spending a lot of my time doing basic lab stuff, and frankly, it was just awkward to listen to. Looking back on it, the perfumer guy who was talking to Roja was clearly trolling him big time because he also knew he wasn't a perfumer.

    A couple of months later, I was introduced at another event to a very well known person in the fragrance industry. I don't want to post his name or divulge any professional info about him publically because I don't want to throw the guy under the bus. If he wants to talk publically about it someday, I'm sure he will. We became quite good mates/colleagues over time and one day when we were chatting about how we both got started in the industry, he confessed to me that he started out working for Roja. He doesn't even put it on his CV because he is so ashamed of it. He was the one who initially told me that back when he worked for him, all Roja's perfumes were made by junior perfumers at Robertet. (this was mid 2000s) Roja would give Robertet perfumers a brief e.g. "Perfume name will be this, it will be floral, or woody, here's what the oil price should be so that I can make a margin". I got curious and started doing my own research. To my great surprise, the answer was hiding in plain sight on Fragrances of the World.

    Roja Dove is not a Perfumer. He never has been. He was a brand ambassador at Guerlain, and then at some point started his brand "Roja", the perfumes for which were initially created by junior perfumers at Robertet. Recently, he switched to a really small barely-known perfume house called Argeville - they make all of his formulas and also compound them. He gives them "olfactive direction" which is basically "Hi, I want something floral and musky, needs to smell a bit like this perfume on the market and needs to sell. Thanks."

    I'm sorry, but can people please stop worshipping this con artist. Nobody inside the industry takes him seriously. He is ripping people off. He is not a perfumer. The title of a "perfumer" needs to be earned and there are people who spend years and years training, studying and practising. This sadly does not apply to Roja. Fine, you can like Roja's fragrances okay. Each to their own. But for the love of all that's still a little bit sacred in fragrance, stop calling this guy a "Master Perfumer". It's an insult.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Roja vs Clive Christian

    well since were going down the "is Roger a perfumer" rabbit hole once again.....One thing we do know for certain, he was never a perfumer at Guerlain. That is a fact. As far as Puredistance and his own brand, who really knows. He refers to himself as a master perfumer, but that really doesnt meant a whole lot. I did read an interview one time where he stated that he creates every fragrance for Roja Dove from the comfort of his own home. Im sure he is talking about the inital idea of a scent, but again....who really knows. Maybe someone should ask him.




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