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  1. #1
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    Default Removing indole from Jasmin Sambac. Amberlyst 15?

    Hello,
    My wife loves Jasmin Sambac and I have created for her a few perfumes that prominently feature Jasmin Sambac absolute and she loves them. But after about an hour or two of wear, the indole from the Jasmin begins to take over and it ruins the scent( in my opinion). I have tried many different Jasmin Sambac products from various producers/ resellers but even those with the lowest percent of indole still have too much. A few hours in and all I smell is indole.
    Is there a relatively simple method to remove the indole from the Jasmin Sambac absolute? Google has failed me on this one except for a single research paper written in the 1990s on removal of indole from petrol fuel supplies using Amberyst 15. Does anyone have experience using Amberlyst 15 or have another alternate method for selectively removing indole?
    Thanks, David

  2. #2
    Super Member Big L's Avatar
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    Default Re: Removing indole from Jasmin Sambac. Amberlyst 15?

    I have no experience removing indole from Jasmin Sambac absolute, but I would like to suggest an alternative approach. What if instead of removing the indole, you would add to the base of your perfume other long-lasting materials that will play well with the indole?

    I am a bit reluctant to suggest any specific ones, as it really depends on where you would like to take the formula, but many things will work. Ethyl Vanillin, Cetalox, or Javanol are a few random examples that come to my mind.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Removing indole from Jasmin Sambac. Amberlyst 15?

    IME, coumarin works really nicely with jasmine to moderate indolic facet on the drydown.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Removing indole from Jasmin Sambac. Amberlyst 15?

    what about building a synthetic jasmin base without indole, and adding your absolute in tiny amounts to this base?

  5. #5

    Default Re: Removing indole from Jasmin Sambac. Amberlyst 15?

    I don't know of any way of removing indole from an existing compound that wouldn't also remove other necessary aroma molecules that you'd want to keep. Have you tried tweaking your base notes to add some sweetness or freshness to help cover or modify the indole in the drydown?


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  6. #6

    Default Re: Removing indole from Jasmin Sambac. Amberlyst 15?

    Amberlyst® 15 is a resin used in HPLC or TLC columns. And a chromatographic method would be the only way to "remove" a compound from Jasmin Sambac. There is no way to just put something into Jasmin Sambac and then the indoles are gone. So, the options from the other comments would be the way to go.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Removing indole from Jasmin Sambac. Amberlyst 15?

    Well, you are absolutely right but I want to add that sometimes "chromatographic" can be crude and easy such as if it's the case (I don't know) that indole very strongly binds to that resin and one can wash everything else through rapidly with essentially no resolution, generally together with a suitable solvent such as ethyl acetate, while that one material or class of materials is retained on the resin and washed out later. For example, terpeneless essential oils can be prepared this way, or in nutraceuticals tannins can be removed easily in this way in at least one case.

    Whether that is the case here, I don't know.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Removing indole from Jasmin Sambac. Amberlyst 15?

    The Amberlyst 15 targets a specific molecular type. Philip Kraft at Givaudan suggested that I use Amberlyst 15 for Ammonia removal in that perfume that I have mentioned here a few times. (Ultimately, I opted for neutralization, instead of removal.) Amberlyst 15 also proved to be a bit problematic to obtain at an affordable price, but was ultimately found.

    I think that if it were me doing this task, I would build my own Jasmine base to the specs desired, instead of monkeying around with an expensive natural for this purpose...
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Removing indole from Jasmin Sambac. Amberlyst 15?

    Yes, Amberlyst 15 is strongly acidic. So it can bind ammonia, amines, and possibly indoles. But it is not very specific to just indoles.
    The only specific reaction that would spring to mind would be an enzymatic reaction (e.g. indole oxygenase). But normally enzymes will need a defined pH to work, so I'm not sure if this would work in pure Jasmin Sambac. A Jasmine base would be a much easier solution.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Removing indole from Jasmin Sambac. Amberlyst 15?

    Since I did not read the petroleum paper, it is also possible that that could have been a catalyzed reaction using the Amberlyst as the catalyst rather than only binding the indole with it as per my previous post.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Removing indole from Jasmin Sambac. Amberlyst 15?

    I don't think there's any reason to take Jasmine absolute and then try to remove the indole.
    Just reconstruct the jasmine from ACs, but just without adding the indole. These days it is not difficult to do. Jasmine happens to be one of the notes where the synthetic is not inferior to the natural.

    I suspect you may even find that if it does not have indole, some other substitute will need to be found to give the overall desired jasmine effect.
    Indole is a moderately important component of the total overall fragrance of jasmine.

    If you're trying to stay the all-natural route, some sources of jasmine and species of jasmine have less indole than others.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Removing indole from Jasmin Sambac. Amberlyst 15?

    As for trying to remove indole, that is not going to be easy, but compounds like indole do bind with aldehydes to form enamines. No idea how that might smell, though I suspect it would be much less strong.

    The chemistry can be a little more complicated than that. For example, vanilla would react with indole in the presence of air to give a strongly red colored compound... that probably wouldn't have much of a smell.
    "Unprecedented Formation of 2,5-Diaminoquinones from the Reaction of Vanillin with Secondary Amines in Aerobic Conditions", Mauro Barbero, December 2019, European JOC

    I'm not sure if there's even enough indole in jasmine absolute that it would even cause any observably noticeable discoloration. Probably not.
    Indole is pretty potent and has an odor even in tiny quantities.

    (In the event you did decide to try this, you would probably want to do it in the dark, so the air does not degrade the jasmonate in natural jasmine. And incidentally, the synthetic analogue of natural jasmonate, Hedione, does not have such a vulnerability to degradation)

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Removing indole from Jasmin Sambac. Amberlyst 15?

    Thanks to everyone for the advice; I appreciate all of the thoughtful replies.




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