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  1. #1

    Default Sandalwood and Patchouli

    Hi all,

    I've been trying to get to know my materials so I've seen around that sandalwood and patchouli go together well. However, from my experiments, even 3 parts of sandalwood (mysore) to 1 part patchouli (natural kit from perfumer appertince) smell very pungant and like a rotten orange or trash bin.

    Do essential oils "expire" and that could explain this? I've had these materials for a couple of months now. Or is it that my ratio is all wrong?

    I have patchouli at 0.1% and sandalwood at 10%. The patchouli at 0.1%, when put on a smelling strip, still has a smell after 2 days! So it's particulary tenacious!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    deleted as it's a different "Sandalwood (Mysore)".
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 23rd June 2021 at 07:38 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    Quote Originally Posted by FleetingDream View Post
    Hi all,

    I've been trying to get to know my materials so I've seen around that sandalwood and patchouli go together well. However, from my experiments, even 3 parts of sandalwood (mysore) to 1 part patchouli (natural kit from perfumer appertince) smell very pungant and like a rotten orange or trash bin.

    Do essential oils "expire" and that could explain this? I've had these materials for a couple of months now. Or is it that my ratio is all wrong?

    I have patchouli at 0.1% and sandalwood at 10%. The patchouli at 0.1%, when put on a smelling strip, still has a smell after 2 days! So it's particulary tenacious!
    Your oils probably aren't expired. I don't know PA's patchouli, but the quality of the patchouli is probably what is leading to this result. Freshly distilled patchouli of so-so quality is pretty funky stuff. I would look for an aged patchouli or a fractional distillation. Either would smooth out the funky top and middle notes of fresh patchouli, which can smell like wet dog or body odor.

    Also, while sandalwood and patchouli blend well together, they are rarely used together solely as a complete fragrance, even in attar form. I would add some middle and top notes, and some base notes to smooth things out. You can add a bit of labdanum or an amber accord (not too much) as a base to make it smoother. I would add rose or neroli absolute as a middle note to sweeten and brighten a bit. Then you can add whatever top notes you like - rose otto, jasmine EO, neroli EO, lavender, citrus, herbal notes, etc.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    While I am not saying the following is the sole cause if necessarily cause at all of your experience with these, my experience in early stages of perfuming was that bad mixtures composed of only a few essential oils often took on, to my consciousness, smells that they didn't actually have. My brain didn't know to process the messes, basically, and so what got up to my conscious perception was things my brain did know, like soap, hot garbage, etc. So sometimes such perceptions are from unfamiliarity combined with using naturals at too high percentage of formula each.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    Thanks all for the replies!

    @Bill Roberts I didn't know that about Perfumer's Apprentice! My sandalwood is from https://aqua-oleum.co.uk/sandalwood-mysore

    Patchouli is from PA. I do feel that the sandalwood I have is weak compared to Patchouli at 0.1% and Styrax at 10% (PA). It does last on a smelling strip for around 2 days, but it's light and faint (a bit sharp though) throughout. I used it with patchouli and Styrax in a mix and it smells absolutely (to me) like rotten oranges.

    @HabibiGotIt agreed, it's not meant as a full perfume as I'm just trying to get how these two materials smell together over time.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    Oh! My mistake. As the retailer I mentioned has a naturals kit and has a material named exactly as you said, including with the parentheses which is rather distinctive, I thought it was them. I am therefore deleting the material inapplicable to your current problem.

    As you do also buy from PA, the general advice I do stand by but as you have already read it, it isn't necessary to keep up as it isn't so much related to the thread, other than that the patchouli should not be assumed to be high quality given that PA does not disclose where they get it and there is no real basis for confidence when they do not.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    If you are looking for a beautiful patchouli that blends really nicely, Robertet patchouli absolute (available at Perfumer's Supply House) is gorgeous. Absolutely smooth as silk from tippiest top to deepest bottom.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    FWIW, my favorite Patchouli and patchouli type materials are that above Absolute, Robertet Fraction B, Clearwood, and Patchoulol (Ventos.)

    Now another person may very well love dark patchoulis, aged patchoulis, some particular Patchouli Light, etc. I am not saying anything against them. They cannot be as broadly used. Molecular Distilled is another cleaner type.

    (I am kind of like Cartman when it comes to hippie notes in my compositions, perhaps leading to the above preferences. Another could be looking exactly for such a note.)

    Good Sandalwood other than at PSH is hard to find. PSH's Sandalwood Indian is a good choice and is very reasonably priced for what you get. Other than that I don't know how you can get a good one for under about $200/oz and the poor still outnumber the good, widely, at even that price level IMO. It sounds to me that you got ripped with the Aqua-oleum.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    Yeah, Fraction B smells really really nice, too. Altho I haven't blended with it yet. I should do some controlled comparisons w the absolute.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    I have an untested hypothesis that perhaps the ultimate Patchouli, for me, would be some balance of the Robertet Absolute and Fraction B, perhaps pumped up in patchoulol content with the Ventos according to the particular use.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    I have the Ventos patchoulol too, so would be interesting to try. If I started with equal parts absolute & fraction B, how much patchoulol would you add as a starting point?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    I really don't know!

    I tend to like a lot of patchoulol. The way I would describe if need is for more "character" and "interest" and depth rather than more diffusivity then more of the Absolute and Fraction B, whereas if happy with those but wanting more diffusivity or more of what to me is almost a radiance (but not really, if that makes sense) then add Patchoulol.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    Sounds like a good way to think about it!

  14. #14

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    A lot of what you guys are talking about is over my head as I'm still just a beginner but so much to look forward to! Thank you all!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    I have to say that I have a penchant for both Patchouli & sandalwood. I have multiple types of both. Sandalwood & Patchouli go together like peanut butter & jelly. Ratios don't matter. Aged or fractionated doesn't matter. It's all gorgeous in its own way.

    I have never used the sandalwood you refer to, but based on their pricing, which is on the low end of the spectrum for Mysore Santalum album, I would suspect that may be the culprit? Genuine s. album from the Mysore region is difficult to obtain, although India is trying to reopen that market through the sandalwood farms....the problem is very much like that of the Oud market....that the oil can only be obtained from adequately aged trees. So there is a waiting period of sorts for these farmed crops to mature in order to be useful in perfumery.

    What Patchouli material did you use from PA? There are not only different types & grades of natural Patchouli, but there are also natural Patchouli isolates that don't smell that great on their own or as an attar with sandalwood (which is basically the direction your blend was headed, although they were not co-distilled like a true attar). But I can't think of any combination of mysore sandalwood & Patchouli that would smell like a rotten orange. You've got the makings of perfumery porn with those two materials alone....


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  16. #16

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren Alan View Post
    I have to say that I have a penchant for both Patchouli & sandalwood. I have multiple types of both. Sandalwood & Patchouli go together like peanut butter & jelly. Ratios don't matter. Aged or fractionated doesn't matter. It's all gorgeous in its own way.

    I have never used the sandalwood you refer to, but based on their pricing, which is on the low end of the spectrum for Mysore Santalum album, I would suspect that may be the culprit? Genuine s. album from the Mysore region is difficult to obtain, although India is trying to reopen that market through the sandalwood farms....the problem is very much like that of the Oud market....that the oil can only be obtained from adequately aged trees. So there is a waiting period of sorts for these farmed crops to mature in order to be useful in perfumery.

    What Patchouli material did you use from PA? There are not only different types & grades of natural Patchouli, but there are also natural Patchouli isolates that don't smell that great on their own or as an attar with sandalwood (which is basically the direction your blend was headed, although they were not co-distilled like a true attar). But I can't think of any combination of mysore sandalwood & Patchouli that would smell like a rotten orange. You've got the makings of perfumery porn with those two materials alone....


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I discovered that I actually do have a "sandalwood" from PA as part of their natural kit #2. It's described as Sandalwood West India but I've discovered it's actually Amyris Balsamifera which is not Sandalwood? So now I'm not sure if I used the one from PA or the one from Aqua, so I'll have to redo my experiment. I also have two Patchouli, one from PA and one I got as a sample from perfumiarz. Again, now I'm unsure which I've used, so I'll have to redo my experiments. But to be honest, I'm beginning to gain an aversion to Patchouli based on how rank it smells and blends with things. I've got a Sandalwood replacer blend from Pell Wall that smells great! So I might opt for that if what you said about true sandalwood being a rarity nowadays.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    IMO it wld be a mistake to blanket avoid patchouli due to bad experiences w inferior materials. There are gorgeous patchouli materials including some pointed out in this thread that are easy to blend with & totally lack difficult unpleasant facets.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    As mentioned before (I think) in your situation I would buy the Perfumer Supply House Sandalwood Indian.

    The PW base is nice-smelling and "perfumey" -- of course, Sandalwood itself does not smell the latter -- and you would not be learning a foundational standard material but rather another perfumer's niche work which is by no means equivalent and will likely never appear in any formula you ever see. Not out of fault, but it just won't be. Even on this forum, which includes Pell Wall customers, I don't recall ever seeing anyone publish a formula using it. So it would have no use to you as being available to plug in when trying formulas you find, either.

    It is also to me fairly "loud", meaning if you definitely want a distinct perfume-sandalwood (and not real sandalwood) note in your fragrance it might do quite well, but if you want Sandalwood sitting in there smoothly and in a supporting way, well that is not its thing, IMO anyway.

    That is not to say you wouldn't enjoy it, quite likely you would and it sounds like you do.

    If wanting a base maybe try Dreamwood Base: it's at least what could be called a commercial standard. And it actually does have santalol in it in large amount, a key component of true Sandalwood. It is much closer to true Sandalwood than is the PW, which I couldn't confuse with real Sandalwood for even a hundredth of a second.

    On Patchouli, as Mike says, try these other cleaner materials. Robertet Patchouli Fraction B would be a nice choice but you wouldn't go wrong IMO with Clearwood or Patchoulol (Ventos) either IMO. I have only just gotten the Robertet Absolute so I would just be guessing as to how versatile it is but my thought right now is it looks very promising. Certainly there is nothing "unclean."

    An advantage of Clearwood is you will find formulas using it. I'm not sure I've ever seen one with Fraction B unless posted here. That doesn't mean it's not used commercially, it must be, but perhaps all such formulas are being kept proprietary. Patchoulol almost surely will be found in some published formulas and it's certainly a standard material.

    I have no objection to anything about Clearwood. At least one person here doesn't like it though. I've never seen an objection to the others.

    "Beauty" is not a clear or objective term but Fraction B and Robertet Absolute would rate higher there IMO for sure, not that that is implication the others are ugly. Then Patchoulol (Ventos). Other patchoulols are likely not equivalent. Personal take.

    Not that I want you to go spend money unnecessarily but Santalol plus Patchoulol and nothing else would be interesting and informative for you to experience, as in a sense that could be called the core essence of Sandalwood plus Patchouli, and btw certainly has no trace of anything "unclean." Yes, both oils have more to them and those additional things can lend beauty or ugliness or meh-ness, but those are the foundation stones of each.

    (At least to those able to smell those components well. I think some "key off of" other components of Sandalwood and perhaps Patchouli though so it may not be true for them.)

    In the case of Sandalwood, an oil having more notes to it than santalol unfortunately by far usually is in a bad direction (at least to my taste), except with the best oils which are never anything but quite pricey. The PSH adds not that much good qualities past santalol itself, but adds no bad whatsoever, and is less than half the price of the next genuinely good Sandalwood oil I know of, so it is a fine buy.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 25th June 2021 at 03:18 PM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    Quote Originally Posted by FleetingDream View Post
    I discovered that I actually do have a "sandalwood" from PA as part of their natural kit #2. It's described as Sandalwood West India but I've discovered it's actually Amyris Balsamifera which is not Sandalwood?
    Looking into this -- as yesterday and the day before I put quite a bit of time into another thread saying about everything good I could about buying naturals from PA to get some kind of balance and now I see this -- that is a puzzler to me.

    It looks like that is an item unique to Natural Kit #2.

    In the regular offerings on the site, not counting the John Steele's (probably all excellent, certainly the one I have is) and the fragrance oil, "Key Accord, " and Givco which of course are not real as shown by the names, the only Sandalwoods I see are the purported Sandalwood (Mysore) which is differently named than you said and btw I'd totally believe isn't Sandalwood at all, and the Australian and New Caledonian.

    No Indian which says anywhere that it is Amyris Balsamifera. Or even any "Sandalwood Indian" at all. Of the purported Mysore, which would be Indian of course if genuine, they claim S. album.

    So apparently your bogus Sandalwood is unique to that kit, which may be why no one here recognized it before.

    How did you find it is Amyris, or for that matter supposedly Indian? I couldn't find that on the webpage.

    Btw there is another thread recently posted on how to buy naturals and be able to have good confidence in not being ripped.

    In this case, John Steele is a known supplier of excellent reputation so one can buy that from Perfumer's Apprentice with no worries of perhaps being cheated. And if you saw they sourced any given product from some other known-great company, you'd have no worries there either. With regards to Sandalwoods at PA that are Santalum album, the classic (one might say) species, on that basis you would be left only with John Steele.

    EDIT: Is it possible it is labeled Sandalwood West Indian? If so that is a common, accepted name for the essential oil of that species and there would be no label deception or error if that is what it says. However the kit description absolutely should not have claimed simply "Sandalwood" if the material supplied was that.

    Further edit: If it is indeed Amyris balsamifera then contrary to the above it is not unique to that kit, they sell it directly and very clearly as such: https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com...ood-haiti.aspx . When sold alone, they don't title it "Sandalwood," as indeed they should not, but rather "Amyris Wood (Haiti)" and it does not turn up under a Sandalwood search term which is why I did not see it before. That should be what the label says. It doesn't?

    Anyway, Amyris is no Sandalwood at all.

    Welcome to Perfumer's Apprentice! (sigh)

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    Bill is doing an excellent job of enlightenment on the subject of naturals.Truly kudos!
    His end is authenticity, and holding vendors accountable, and tracing the source.
    I have a few and on this that I go on about: naturals have to be evaluated no matter the source.I came into this because I didn’t have a natural I didn’t find at least fascinating, but more likely , I was enraptured with. I wanted to encapsulate and prolong the experience ( still working on that , lol)
    I started with Eden botanicals, and thank god I did , because that is benchmark to live up to: but that being said, I quickly found out that ordering an oil from different lots had extremely different results, sometimes disappointing, sometimes just different. And then the quest was on- I buy small amounts of anything I can afford- because nothing natural is exactly the same. I think I have 10 different patchoulis, not counting the fractionated or isolates. Every single one is very different.
    Sandalwoods ( again small amounts of 8 legit versions) vary even more.
    Amyris isn’t even close to sandalwood-I think they use it as a filler he same way sandalwood is used in attars, but the results would be no where near what sandalwood would give.
    Plus when I was new at this, I could not smell half of what was really going on- I had to train my nose- and if I don’t practice smelling regularly, I have to relearn.
    Often my scent memory will grab at anything familiar to identify a new smell, I have to give it time.
    I would do what Bill is says: get products from a known source and try with that, see if it’s better-
    Aging patchouli gives a completely different product, but the fractions from psh are really really good

  21. #21

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    Thank you, Jolieo!

    And you know that is an absolutely great and vital point you made. I need to add in to my other thread this aspect re your experiences (and mine) with Eden Botanicals because it is very important indeed.

    As mentioned my opinion is that they do indeed appear to have good knowledge of whether materials are not merely authentic but also perfumery-suitable (they have some understanding and client base here as well as in aromatherapy) but unlike a perfumery-only supplier they can have more variation over time than can be workable for Perfumery.

    If only I could buy again the Tuberose Organic I had years ago from them!

    The current product of the same name is, while a quite good product, not remotely able to be a replacement in a perfume formula. As one example only.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    Lastly, on the Patchouli you have from PA:

    What is listed for the kit is "Patchouli Essential Oil (Indonesia)."

    Among their Patchoulis, by process of elimination it would have to be this one -- https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com...arch=patchouli -- as for sure you're not going to get a John Steele in that kit and it's not the Absolute nor is it fractions, etc.

    You can see from that one that there is self-created documentation only which further hides any mention of their supplier: https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/msds/6552.pdf

    At PA or any retailer not having other real strengths meriting trust (see other thread if you like), this is always sufficient cause to move on somewhere else for an item.

    From the above alone, which one can learn from the website, it is high risk of being garbage.

    As you have smelled.

    Yes, it's a shame that people are being introduced to Perfumery this way.

    Anyway, feel good about the fact that you did successfully recognize problems! That means you have discernment and can detect there are problems yourself without needing to be told, in fact in the face of information available to you, and you didn't just think "Oh, well this is how it is" and accept it. That is vital and not everyone has it.

    It would be a good idea to go through your kits and identify all the oils that are of dubious quality, using both your impression from smell and factors explained in the other thread. E.g., if you are thinking "This doesn't seem what I would guess it should" but it's an Albert Vielle, then work with it some more and see what you think then, but if it has self-created documentation only, you're probably right and you would be well served to get something better rather than "learn" falsely with poor, fake, and/or misrepresented material of which, having looked at the lists, I am sure there are several or many in your kits.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 25th June 2021 at 05:06 PM.

  23. #23

    Default Sandalwood and Patchouli

    Why in the world would PA knowingly provide Amyris oil as Sandalwood in an EDUCATIONAL KIT? This kit is supposed to be a training tool for beginners to train their nose to recognize the nuances of a raw material in order to create a foundation for future perfumery practice. If you look at the contents of their Notes Kit, they list Sandalwood as one of the included ingredients, but then as Bill pointed out, they parenthetically denote that it is in fact NOT sandalwood, but rather Amyris oil.

    https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com...20Revised).pdf

    Why not include one of the various derivations of sandalwood (even a decent synthetic or their horrible Sandalwood Key Accord which smells like Patchouli & peanut butter)? At least it would be an attempt to represent sandalwood in some transparent manner...

    Or...and here's a crazy idea....why not provide REAL sandalwood of some type in this kit to teach people what it actually smells like? It can't be an issue of cost. They are providing a 4mL vial of Amyris oil at 4.39% dilution. That is 0.175g of Amyris oil. So if they used real sandalwood...even if they used the Steele Sandalwood Supreme, at that same dilution, it would only be $2.33 to actually provide the genuine material. I don't get it. Why provide an educational kit if what you are providing is false information? I realize that Amyris is often called Poor Man's Sandalwood, or West Indian Sandalwood...but it smells nothing like genuine s.album. It has its own beautiful aspects, but why conflate it with real sandalwood?

    It would be like selling an "Intro to Oil Painting Kit" with one of the paints labeled as Prussian Blue, but swapping it out for Cobalt Blue instead. What is the point of including it in the kit if you are just contributing to people's confusion? And how many other materials are substituted, perhaps without disclosure? So annoying.....


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  24. #24

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    I know I've given the quote before, but regarding transparency and education as you mentioned:

    "We are at a very exciting point in the evolution of Perfumer’s Apprentice and want to put our best foot forward by showcasing ingredient transparency and education. Without insight such as yours, this would be a longer road, so please know that your perspective and curiosities are fueling us forward."
    told me in response to my documenting a given product was a recon (it's still being sold though as if real) I guess we have to realize that "evolution" is always on a long time scale indeed. Perhaps this generation's great-to-the-thousandth grandchildren will see noticeable advancement at PA in transparency and actual education with true materials, if fortune smiles.

    And how far forward is forward? I might have provided only inches worth of "fueling."

    How far fuel will go of course depends on the resistance that must be overcome.

    Anyway, agreed completely, it's quite the disservice to education to provide wrong, poor quality, or misleading ingredients in what purports to be provided for education. And as you say, at that dilution and small amount provided even top quality would have been affordable so there is zero excuse whatsoever.

    I would even say that combining that dilution and small quantity with selecting from the bottom of the barrel, or even a wrong barrel as here, is downright shameful.

    And, as I understand that some will genuinely feel so, for any who may feel PA is getting beaten up too hard and too often here on these things, these are self-inflicted wounds on their part. For example no one made them substitute Amyris for Sandalwood, nor made them lead beginners to believe that the Amyris they shipped was Sandalwood, nor was this from lack of knowing what they were doing. These things being mentioned come from their willful decisions rather than lack of awareness. All this is utterly unnecessary and is not even making them that much extra money. It is actually quite sad at best.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    The sad thing is it's exactly the beginners who will be demoralized by stuff like this & possibly even give up the pursuit. I mean we've got someone in this thread swearing off patchouli bcs all they've experienced is trash.

  26. #26

    Default Sandalwood and Patchouli

    All very good points Bill. And even in their email response to you, they talk about this "long road" to transparency. Why so? It's not that difficult. There doesn't need to be a long road unless they choose to drag this process out. They can fix this immediately by doing 2 things:

    1. Correctly identify the materials you are selling on your website (don't lie)...

    2. Provide legitimate SDS and relevant documentation from your actual suppliers instead of creating bogus SDS that do not represent the product you are really selling.

    These are not extraordinary expectations. Even private individuals selling their children's used clothing on Ebay are expected to provide accurate descriptions of the products they are listing in terms of size, color, condition & BRAND NAME.

    This literally would take a week for someone on their team to sit down & go through their product listings and correct the misinformation. The fact that they continue to KNOWINGLY sell misbranded/mislabled materials suggests that their motivation is not driven by transparency or by their pride in the quality of materials they provide.


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  27. #27

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    Quote Originally Posted by mnitabach View Post
    The sad thing is it's exactly the beginners who will be demoralized by stuff like this & possibly even give up the pursuit. I mean we've got someone in this thread swearing off patchouli bcs all they've experienced is trash.
    Good point!


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  28. #28

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    No Indian which says anywhere that it is Amyris Balsamifera. Or even any "Sandalwood Indian" at all. Of the purported Mysore, which would be Indian of course if genuine, they claim S. album.

    So apparently your bogus Sandalwood is unique to that kit, which may be why no one here recognized it before.

    How did you find it is Amyris, or for that matter supposedly Indian? I couldn't find that on the webpage.
    It says so on the bottle itself. Here's what I took a video of earlier today: https://media.giphy.com/media/aj1fNm...DmYm/giphy.gif

    But yeah, it looks like I need to be careful with Sandalwood and Patchouli. Thankfully, everyone's been so kind as to suggest Patchouli alternatives (Clearwood, etc) that I could try instead! This is definitely a learning experience!

    To be honest, I'm a bit wary of PA's natural offerings since some of the oils I got in those natural kits smell very nasty to me. For example, Clary Sage, Tarragon, Geranium, Coriander and Nutmeg are particularly nasty smelling to the point I don't even want to use them. But then again, I have no point of reference for comparison so maybe they do smell like that...

    Quote Originally Posted by mnitabach View Post
    The sad thing is it's exactly the beginners who will be demoralized by stuff like this & possibly even give up the pursuit. I mean we've got someone in this thread swearing off patchouli bcs all they've experienced is trash.
    Haha, I'm not swearing off Patchouli but maybe close to that? I will try out the suggestions given in this thread and they probably will smell better. But I probably wouldn't want to try to get another "natural" Patchouli if, by the looks of the responses here, can be funky depending on where you get it from. I'll stick with isolates for now. But yes, you are right in that it can demoralize beginners (of which I am one). I have begun to doubt all the natural smells I've received from PA as pointed above so I'll probably seek that thread that Bill mentioned about sourcing naturals and start from there. Learning perfumery is already an ardious endevaour without adding in funky materials haha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren Alan View Post
    All very good points Bill. And even in their email response to you, they talk about this "long road" to transparency. Why so? It's not that difficult. There doesn't need to be a long road unless they choose to drag this process out. They can fix this immediately by doing 2 things:

    1. Correctly identify the materials you are selling on your website (don't lie)...

    2. Provide legitimate SDS and relevant documentation from your actual suppliers instead of creating bogus SDS that do not represent the product you are really selling.

    These are not extraordinary expectations. Even private individuals selling their children's used clothing on Ebay are expected to provide accurate descriptions of the products they are listing in terms of size, color, condition & BRAND NAME.

    This literally would take a week for someone on their team to sit down & go through their product listings and correct the misinformation. The fact that they continue to KNOWINGLY sell misbranded/mislabled materials suggests that their motivation is not driven by transparency or by their pride in the quality of materials they provide.


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    Agreed 100%!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Lastly, on the Patchouli you have from PA:

    What is listed for the kit is "Patchouli Essential Oil (Indonesia)."

    Among their Patchoulis, by process of elimination it would have to be this one -- https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com...arch=patchouli -- as for sure you're not going to get a John Steele in that kit and it's not the Absolute nor is it fractions, etc.

    You can see from that one that there is self-created documentation only which further hides any mention of their supplier: https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/msds/6552.pdf

    At PA or any retailer not having other real strengths meriting trust (see other thread if you like), this is always sufficient cause to move on somewhere else for an item.

    From the above alone, which one can learn from the website, it is high risk of being garbage.

    As you have smelled.

    Yes, it's a shame that people are being introduced to Perfumery this way.

    Anyway, feel good about the fact that you did successfully recognize problems! That means you have discernment and can detect there are problems yourself without needing to be told, in fact in the face of information available to you, and you didn't just think "Oh, well this is how it is" and accept it. That is vital and not everyone has it.

    It would be a good idea to go through your kits and identify all the oils that are of dubious quality, using both your impression from smell and factors explained in the other thread. E.g., if you are thinking "This doesn't seem what I would guess it should" but it's an Albert Vielle, then work with it some more and see what you think then, but if it has self-created documentation only, you're probably right and you would be well served to get something better rather than "learn" falsely with poor, fake, and/or misrepresented material of which, having looked at the lists, I am sure there are several or many in your kits.
    Thank you for the nice comments. Yeah, like I mentioned above, there are several oils that I doubt is of true quality. I gave some to my girlfriend to smell and when I told her what they're supposed to represent, she almost scoffed, saying it doesn't smell anything like that (she has a better nose that I do).

  29. #29

    Default Sandalwood and Patchouli

    Amyris Wood Oil is also known as "West Indian Sandalwood" and "Poor Man's Sandalwood" but those are just nicknames. It could never be mistaken for real sandalwood if someone has ever smelled the latter. It's in the ball park in terms of being a soft woody note, but it's not a suitible replacement for real sandalwood IMO...But I see how this would be very confusing to someone trying to learn with their kit.

    I suggest finding some real sandalwood mysore oil....even if you purchase a fraction of a gram (which still won't be cheap), and use it as a reference material to compare other materials to...and try your hand at recreating its accord. That's a fun exercise I often do!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Darren Alan
    www.darrenalan.com

  30. #30

    Default Re: Sandalwood and Patchouli

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren Alan View Post
    Amyris Wood Oil is also known as "West Indian Sandalwood" and "Poor Man's Sandalwood" but those are just nicknames. It could never be mistaken for real sandalwood if someone has ever smelled the latter. It's in the ball park in terms of being a soft woody note, but it's not a suitible replacement for real sandalwood IMO...But I see how this would be very confusing to someone trying to learn with their kit.

    I suggest finding some real sandalwood mysore oil....even if you purchase a fraction of a gram (which still won't be cheap), and use it as a reference material to compare other materials to...and try your hand at recreating its accord. That's a fun exercise I often do!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yeah, I see. So is it misleading? Because I did expect to get Sandalwood, not Amyris specially since the kit description (https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com...ery-kit-2.aspx) doesn't say it's Amyris but rather just Sandalwood. What do you do with materials you don't like when you source from different sources? Throw them away?




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