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  1. #1

    Default Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Has anyone had any luck replicating the powder profile of the Homme line? My best guess is a mix of ionones - gamma methyl and alpha irone maybe, on top of something like carrot seed oil, but it's not quite there.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    I have tried and largely failed to replicate this aspect in a few powdery makeup type fragrances - DHI, Prada L'homme and Tom Ford Noir Extreme.

    I have only tried the intense from this line. A hint of orivone got me closer than carrot seed did. It definitely contains alpha isomethyl ionone (it's listed on the ingredients list) and probably alpha irone too, but I don't have this yet. Then I think it's the interplay of the iris accord with geraniol, vanilla (apparently both vanillin and ethyl vanillin), coumarin and ambrettolide that makes it super powdery.

    I'd love to know how you get on.
    Last edited by Yuri-G; 21st July 2021 at 08:34 AM.
    Andy

  3. #3

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    For the study of powdery accords, here is one of Big L's eight-liners that is mega-powdery. I'm pretty sure from my experimentation with it that in addition to the ionone, lilial & PEA are keys to the powdery accord.

    https://www.basenotes.net/threads/48...857&highlight=

    My sense is that there are many independent routes to "powdery", including from a floral direction (such as this), but also from a woody direction (such as vetiver, patchouli, vanilla, etc). I think (pure speculation) a route to "fine fragrance" powdery accords might be to intersect floral & woody powdery sub-accords & amplify with powdery musks.

    Question for the musk experts: What would be the musk to reach for with maximal powderiness?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    I have sniffed some of those "Powdery" bombs , what I have found so far experimenting with different materials is that the "Tonalide" and "Ambrocenide" are the main players along with the list of materials listed below :

    Methyl Ionone
    Gamma methyl Ionone
    Iso E super
    Patchouli light
    Ambroxan
    Vanillin/Ethyl Vanillin
    muscone / muscenone
    Damascones / damascenones

    for the quality blends you can also use Orris butter, iris nitrile, alpha irone , boisiris
    || सुगंधिम पुष्टि वर्धनम || : May the fragrant god nourishes all beings

  5. #5

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Quote Originally Posted by mnitabach View Post
    For the study of powdery accords, here is one of Big L's eight-liners that is mega-powdery. I'm pretty sure from my experimentation with it that in addition to the ionone, lilial & PEA are keys to the powdery accord.

    https://www.basenotes.net/threads/48...857&highlight=

    My sense is that there are many independent routes to "powdery", including from a floral direction (such as this), but also from a woody direction (such as vetiver, patchouli, vanilla, etc). I think (pure speculation) a route to "fine fragrance" powdery accords might be to intersect floral & woody powdery sub-accords & amplify with powdery musks.

    Question for the musk experts: What would be the musk to reach for with maximal powderiness?
    I made a super-powdery accord once with clary sage essential oil, coumarin, labdanum and timbersilk, then played around with it a bit. You can replace the resinous and woody materials as required it seems - benzoin and cedarwood were also good - but it was the interplay of the sharp clary sage, sweet coumarin and deeper woody aspects that created this effect. I want to try it now with clary sage absolute to see if you get the same effect without the sharp top notes of the essential oil.

    In terms of musks, prada l'homme apparently uses habanolide and exaltolide. I think Paul K said DHI uses around 5% muscone, but I could be misremembering that. I remember being surprised that it was such a large dose of one of the animalic musks.

    I have read that Velvione is one of the most powdery musks, but I don't have it yet.
    Andy

  6. #6

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Yes, I was going to add that some sort of 'super amber' is an important part of the DHI powdery effect.
    Andy

  7. #7

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Velvione is super powdery at high doses! But it is not very transparent...

  8. #8

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    There is definitely Costus Ollifac in Dior Homme. It's one of the favorite nuances in that fragrance for me.


    Darren Alan Perfumes
    www.darrenalan.com
    Darren Alan
    www.darrenalan.com

  9. #9

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Ok, this is weird. The other day I had a perfumery session where I made a few fragrance sketches. To clean my pipettes, I squirted them into a small amount of perfumer's alcohol, then a fresh batch. I noticed that the leftover alcohol from the first rinse smelled really nice so I noted down the materials I had used and put someon a test strip. It smelled quite like DHI I thought.

    Then this thread came along and prompted me to try to recreate this accident. I thought I would start with just a pipette drop of each material at the concentrations used. I thought no way would such an unscientific method work, but it's a surprisingly good approximation of DHI.

    It was one drop each (at 100% unless otherwise noted) of:


    Hedione (I actually used two drops of this)
    Dihydromyrcenol
    Florol
    Isoraldeine 95 (or Alpha isomethyl ionone should work)
    Rose base (50%)
    Clary sage absolute (20%)
    Benzyl salicylate
    Ethyl Maltol (10%)
    Ethyl Vanillin (25%)
    Coumarin (25%)
    Amyris essential oil
    Ambermax 10%
    Hydroxyambran 10%
    Evernyl 10%
    Habanolide

    I'm not sure how essential all of these are. I would definitely keep the dihydromyrcenol, isoraldeine/ionone, vanillin, coumarin, ethyl maltol and ambermax (or similar material), along with some sort of rosaceous material. The original contains geraniol and citronellol.

    Like I say, it's pretty damn good! Maybe some citrus is needed to help exalt the top, and it's not quite as intense, but a good starting point.
    Andy

  10. #10

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Assuming one can't measure a "drop" of a solid substance, what was the concentration of coumarin?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Oh yeah, 25%
    Andy

  12. #12

  13. #13

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    I'm comparing the two on skin now. Mine lacks the sparkly citrus top and is less sweet and vanillic underneath. The iris aspect needs a boost too.
    Andy

  14. #14

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Comparing the two I can see more differences. I doubled the ethyl vanillin and added a drop of bergamot and one of orivone. This is much closer.

    But the dhi has a more long-lasting sparkliness. What could this be I wonder?
    Andy

  15. #15

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Thanks for posting these detailed empirical observations! Perhaps needless to say, this is vastly more useful than pure speculation.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuri-G View Post
    Comparing the two I can see more differences. I doubled the ethyl vanillin and added a drop of bergamot and one of orivone. This is much closer.

    But the dhi has a more long-lasting sparkliness. What could this be I wonder?

    Maybe some citrus nitriles ? like lemonile, hydrocitronitrile, citronitrile ?
    || सुगंधिम पुष्टि वर्धनम || : May the fragrant god nourishes all beings

  17. #17

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Quote Originally Posted by santalfanboy View Post
    Maybe some citrus nitriles ? like lemonile, hydrocitronitrile, citronitrile ?
    Dammit, I didn't even know these existed and now I want them!
    Andy

  18. #18

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Into more of the drydown now and the clary sage is wrong. Absolutely lovely, but quite quite wrong. Might keep it in for my version.
    Andy

  19. #19

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Quote Originally Posted by mnitabach View Post
    Thanks for posting these detailed empirical observations! Perhaps needless to say, this is vastly more useful than pure speculation.
    Andy

  20. #20

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuri-G View Post
    Dammit, I didn't even know these existed and now I want them!
    Citronellyl nitrile is particularly useful in this regard. It combines a citrus facet with floral facet, and has excellent longevity compared to typical citrus molecules. I have tested out a few example formulas with it on TGSC & it gives very interesting effects.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Ok, interesting. What's the tenacity of that?

    In the extended drydown, my version lacks intensity compared to the original.

    Maybe it's the choice of musk. I found what Paul Kiler said and it was actually 6.36% Exaltone, not muscone.

    Also the 3.44% cedrol he mentions might be key. I don't have this. Any ideas what could replace it? I have cedramber and cedryl acetate.
    Andy

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Quoting from a BN member's DHi reconstruction, they used these materials, which comprise the orris and powdery section:

    vetiver EO Haiti / Vetiverol
    Isoraldeine 95 (G)
    Orris Givco 204
    alpha Irone
    Orris Butter (15% irones)
    Galaxolide
    Ambrettolide (Fir)
    Coumarin


    Quoting from my own scent under development for a client in this general olfactory direction, I am using these for the Orris and powdery section:

    Vanoris
    Carrot Seed EO
    Iris Nitrile
    Isoraldiene 95
    Dihydro ionone Beta
    Beta ionone
    Irisone
    Orris Givco
    a-irone
    Boronal
    Cetonal
    Veltonal
    Koavone
    Cedar China Cupressus Funebris
    Patchouli China
    Coumarin
    Galaxolide
    Ambrettolide
    Muscenone
    Silvanone Supra
    Musk Ketone

    I decided not to use any of my own PK made captive molecules that could be used in this scent. But one of them is rather a close substitute material for Beta Irone. This perfume is very close to release, the client has presumably the last version in hand for review.






  23. #23

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Quoting from a BN member's DHi reconstruction, they used these materials, which comprise the orris and powdery section:

    vetiver EO Haiti / Vetiverol
    Isoraldeine 95 (G)
    Orris Givco 204
    alpha Irone
    Orris Butter (15% irones)
    Galaxolide
    Ambrettolide (Fir)
    Coumarin


    Quoting from my own scent under development for a client in this general olfactory direction, I am using these for the Orris and powdery section:

    Vanoris
    Carrot Seed EO
    Iris Nitrile
    Isoraldiene 95
    Dihydro ionone Beta
    Beta ionone
    Irisone
    Orris Givco
    a-irone
    Boronal
    Cetonal
    Veltonal
    Koavone
    Cedar China Cupressus Funebris
    Patchouli China
    Coumarin
    Galaxolide
    Ambrettolide
    Muscenone
    Silvanone Supra
    Musk Ketone

    I decided not to use any of my own PK made captive molecules that could be used in this scent. But one of them is rather a close substitute material for Beta Irone. This perfume is very close to release, the client has presumably the last version in hand for review.





    carrot seed + iris nitrile , people do not even consider trying without heavy heavy heavy dilution.. this combination is THE BITTER ROOT you won't be able to get past it without dilution
    || सुगंधिम पुष्टि वर्धनम || : May the fragrant god nourishes all beings

  24. #24

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Quote Originally Posted by santalfanboy View Post
    carrot seed + iris nitrile , people do not even consider trying without heavy heavy heavy dilution.. this combination is THE BITTER ROOT you won't be able to get past it without dilution
    I have a sample of iris nitrite at 10% and TBH i can't smell it. I get a hint of a smell similar to orivone, then it's gone.

    Carrot seed is a weird scent. I made a fragrance that featured carrot seed as a prominent note, along with vetiver, oakmoss, rosewood and an overdose of muscenone, among other stuff. It took a long time for the carrot seed to bed in, but it's absolutely gorgeous. Rich, woody, musky. Definitely not a mass market or office fragrance though!
    Andy

  25. #25

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuri-G View Post
    I have a sample of iris nitrite at 10% and TBH i can't smell it. I get a hint of a smell similar to orivone, then it's gone.

    Carrot seed is a weird scent. I made a fragrance that featured carrot seed as a prominent note, along with vetiver, oakmoss, rosewood and an overdose of muscenone, among other stuff. It took a long time for the carrot seed to bed in, but it's absolutely gorgeous. Rich, woody, musky. Definitely not a mass market or office fragrance though!
    irisnitrile @ 10% and you can't smell it, make sure your source is authentic or maybe your material got contaminated ?
    CarrotSeed EO is a bitter smell contributing to the bitter rooty aspect of orris.
    || सुगंधिम पुष्टि वर्धनम || : May the fragrant god nourishes all beings

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuri-G View Post
    I have a sample of iris nitrite at 10% and TBH i can't smell it. I get a hint of a smell similar to orivone, then it's gone.

    Carrot seed is a weird scent. I made a fragrance that featured carrot seed as a prominent note, along with vetiver, oakmoss, rosewood and an overdose of muscenone, among other stuff. It took a long time for the carrot seed to bed in, but it's absolutely gorgeous. Rich, woody, musky. Definitely not a mass market or office fragrance though!
    OMG I love carrot seed oil! It's so mysterious and rich. I haven't used it yet in a perfume but I will!
    Jamie O'Brien

  27. #27

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    I find, like many others here, that "powder" effect can be achieved with the correct ionone blends, beta ionone for that "lipstick" vibe, alpha for the voluminous effect.

    Also Muscenone, seems to do the trick. Much more availbale olfactively than the more expensive Muscone, which is also a beautiful powder vibe (one of the best but very elusive!). It has an almost sweet, makeup smell to it when combined with alpha, beta and perhaps a tiny touch of alpha irone.

    Isoraledeine 95, to me, smells "intoxicating" and synthetic, very beautiful, but perhaps great to back up a floral composition, rather than create an overt "powder" note.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Powdery effect of Dior Homme line?

    I've been recreating this fragrance from a 2008 vintage bottle I have. The powder effect comes through with the mix of isomethyl ionone, vanillin, vanillal, coumarin, orris butter, and the musks Dior used. I have not detected any ethyl vanillin; I'm using GC-MS and GC-FID to start my formulas from. Something interesting I found is the high level of exaltone used. My formula has 1.7% exaltone and 5% of Orris butter @ 10% dilution. Some natural EOs that are present include cardamom, dalmatian sage, lavandin, bergamot, galbanum, & patchouli. I know this thread is regarding the powdery aspect but since I'm currently working on this recreation, I'm just throwing out some info I have. My next step is to try small amounts of ethyl maltol to see its effect.




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